ha‘almah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"

[CMike]

It's really very simple.

Jesus either fulfilled all the messianic prophesies or he didn't. He didn't.

No matter how much you distort, manipulate, and create, that fact doesn't change.

The messianic prophesies are:

Michah 4:3

World Peace

Ezekiel 37

One unified king of the jews

A descendent from David (All tribal lineage comes from the father)

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

All nations will worship one G-D

None of these things happened. Hence, we know the messiah hasn't come yet.

Also no jewish messiah would ever claim to have divine power. That within itself is completely contradictory to the major tenent that G-D gave the jews.

 

[CMike]

It has been shown by the Scriptures that the looked for Messiah has come and the Woman at the Well and many of the people of the area attested to the Fact.(and others besides the Apostles/Disciples which HE taught).

HE came unto HIS own and they received HIM not---as was prophesied.

However, What was it that "our messiah is supposed to do" And What is it that you/"we can to make a world worthy of him".????
Also, Why aren't you "we're not really rocking that agenda right now."???
Wasn't that the prophetic role that was given to Abraham's descendants?? To be a Blessing to the Nations/"light to the Gentiles"??

That may be true for the christian messiah, but it has nothing to do with the jewish messiah as written about in the Torah.

 

[sincerly]

What evidence and whose?

Hi CMike, wouldn't that have to be the evidence given by HIMSELF upon Sinai and the Prophets whom HE sent to warn and instruct those who were in contrary mode to HIS given words/laws of correct relationship to Himself and one's fellow Beings?

 

[CMike]

Hi CMike, wouldn't that have to be the evidence given by HIMSELF upon Sinai and the Prophets whom HE sent to warn and instruct those who were in contrary mode to HIS given words/laws of correct relationship to Himself and one's fellow Beings?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

However the prophets gave the messianic prophesies. Jesus didn't fulfill them.

End of story.

He may be the christian messiah but he was far far FARRRR away from the Torah and jewish values.

 

[Sleeppy]

It's really very simple.

Jesus either fulfilled all the messianic prophesies or he didn't. He didn't.

No matter how much you distort, manipulate, and create, that fact doesn't change.

The messianic prophesies are:

Michah 4:3

World Peace

Ezekiel 37

One unified king of the jews

A descendent from David (All tribal lineage comes from the father)

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

All nations will worship one G-D

None of these things happened. Hence, we know the messiah hasn't come yet.

Also no jewish messiah would ever claim to have divine power. That within itself is completely contradictory to the major tenent that G-D gave the jews.

You mention things the Messiah could not accomplish, except there be an order of fulfillment and time-frame allotted for each. I've already explained this to you.

And if you're honest, you should also acknowledge, that there is a great amount of Divine will and power that must accompany the Messiah, as did Moses; as did Elijah, and so on.

And there is no possible way that every Jew could inhabit Israel, being that the borders would not support them. Especially if you consider the resurrection.

As for tribal lineage, you've not explained it, or supported it with Scripture. And aside from that, you've neither explained how the genealogy can even be authenticated.

I asked Levite, specifically, because you were of no help the first time I asked you. This is the second time.

 

[Levite]

I still haven't seen any logical, alternative interpretation. Do you have one?

An alternative interpretation for what? For Jesus and his alleged fulfillment of prophecies? Yeah, he didn't fulfill them. He was renegade Pharisee turned sectarian leader with delusions of messianism-- which made him no different than a thousand other guys running around Ancient Israel-- and his apocalyptic, millenialist messianist sect outlived him, and might have come to nothing had they not turned to increasing their numbers by proselytizing non-Jews, and eventually transforming themselves into a completely non-Jewish religion.

But nothing either about Jesus himself or about his followers and what became of the religion they built around him, and what they claimed about him and turned him into, has any relevance to actual Jewish messianism.

It has been shown by the Scriptures that the looked for Messiah has come and the Woman at the Well and many of the people of the area attested to the Fact.(and others besides the Apostles/Disciples which HE taught).

HE came unto HIS own and they received HIM not---as was prophesied.

However, What was it that "our messiah is supposed to do" And What is it that you/"we can to make a world worthy of him".????
Also, Why aren't you "we're not really rocking that agenda right now."???
Wasn't that the prophetic role that was given to Abraham's descendants?? To be a Blessing to the Nations/"light to the Gentiles"??

CMike was quite right. Our messiah is supposed to restore the Davidic monarchy, free Jews from non-Jewish rule, return the Jewish People to the Land of Israel, help resolve conflicts between Jews and aid in all Jews better and more faithfully observing the commandments, rededicate the Temple (or, once it was destroyed, rebuild the Temple), and help inaugurate a worldwide age of peace and spiritual advancement and brotherhood.

Jesus did none of those things. Not a single one. There is no proof he was a descendant of David. He didn't restore the monarchy. He didn't help Jews throw off non-Jewish rule-- indeed, his followers ended up being the non-Jewish rulers who oppressed us. He didn't resolve conflicts between Jews, they deepened, and the Temple was destroyed because of sinat chinam (baseless hatred amongst us). He didn't rededicate the Temple, it remained under the control of Sadducees and the corrupted pawns of the Herodian puppet-kings until it was destroyed (and his followers didn't get it rebuilt, nor did he come back from death and rebuild it).

More importantly, he didn't aid all Jews to better and more faithfully observe the commandments: he taught heresies, and his followers ended up becoming apostates, and trying to seduce other Jews into apostasy and heresy.

And he didn't inaugurate a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement. The Church mercilessly persecuted anyone it felt was heretical or otherwise undesirable. It fostered oppression, discrimination, pogroms, the Crusades, religious wars across the globe, forced conversions, the Inquisitions, and imperialist conquest of native peoples everywhere Europeans went. The Church kept knowledge even of its own scriptures and interpretations from common people, and plunged the Western World into the Dark Ages. The history of Christianity is the exact inverse of a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement.

As for what we can do to make a world worthy of the messiah coming, we can follow the commandments, we can try to inspire moral acts in non-Jewish peoples, we can rid ourselves of sinat chinam (baseless hatred) and replace it with ahavat chinam (unconditional love), and we can try to bring peace, justice, and an end to poverty and oppression to the world-- thus creating the proper conditions for the messiah to emerge and lead us, showing God that we are worthy of a messiah.

And we're not actually doing very well on any of those fronts, if one looks either at the state of the world, or the state of the Jewish People.... We could, and should, be doing much better. We can only hope we will improve, and that our children and their children will do even better than we, and perhaps in the day of their descendants, we will be worthy of the messiah.

 

[Sleeppy]

An alternative interpretation for what? For Jesus and his alleged fulfillment of prophecies? Yeah, he didn't fulfill them. He was renegade Pharisee turned sectarian leader with delusions of messianism-- which made him no different than a thousand other guys running around Ancient Israel-- and his apocalyptic, millenialist messianist sect outlived him, and might have come to nothing had they not turned to increasing their numbers by proselytizing non-Jews, and eventually transforming themselves into a completely non-Jewish religion.

But nothing either about Jesus himself or about his followers and what became of the religion they built around him, and what they claimed about him and turned him into, has any relevance to actual Jewish messianism.



CMike was quite right. Our messiah is supposed to restore the Davidic monarchy, free Jews from non-Jewish rule, return the Jewish People to the Land of Israel, help resolve conflicts between Jews and aid in all Jews better and more faithfully observing the commandments, rededicate the Temple (or, once it was destroyed, rebuild the Temple), and help inaugurate a worldwide age of peace and spiritual advancement and brotherhood.

Jesus did none of those things. Not a single one. There is no proof he was a descendant of David. He didn't restore the monarchy. He didn't help Jews throw off non-Jewish rule-- indeed, his followers ended up being the non-Jewish rulers who oppressed us. He didn't resolve conflicts between Jews, they deepened, and the Temple was destroyed because of sinat chinam (baseless hatred amongst us). He didn't rededicate the Temple, it remained under the control of Sadducees and the corrupted pawns of the Herodian puppet-kings until it was destroyed (and his followers didn't get it rebuilt, nor did he come back from death and rebuild it).

More importantly, he didn't aid all Jews to better and more faithfully observe the commandments: he taught heresies, and his followers ended up becoming apostates, and trying to seduce other Jews into apostasy and heresy.

And he didn't inaugurate a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement. The Church mercilessly persecuted anyone it felt was heretical or otherwise undesirable. It fostered oppression, discrimination, pogroms, the Crusades, religious wars across the globe, forced conversions, the Inquisitions, and imperialist conquest of native peoples everywhere Europeans went. The Church kept knowledge even of its own scriptures and interpretations from common people, and plunged the Western World into the Dark Ages. The history of Christianity is the exact inverse of a worldwide era of peace, brotherhood, and spiritual advancement.

As for what we can do to make a world worthy of the messiah coming, we can follow the commandments, we can try to inspire moral acts in non-Jewish peoples, we can rid ourselves of sinat chinam (baseless hatred) and replace it with ahavat chinam (unconditional love), and we can try to bring peace, justice, and an end to poverty and oppression to the world-- thus creating the proper conditions for the messiah to emerge and lead us, showing God that we are worthy of a messiah.

And we're not actually doing very well on any of those fronts, if one looks either at the state of the world, or the state of the Jewish People.... We could, and should, be doing much better. We can only hope we will improve, and that our children and their children will do even better than we, and perhaps in the day of their descendants, we will be worthy of the messiah.

So far you've restated your position on Jesus, without going into prophecy, which would be important. I want your position on your messiah. What is your alternative expectation?

Answer my questions to CMike if possible, as well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So far you've restated your position on Jesus, without going into prophecy, which would be important. I want your position on your messiah. What is your alternative expectation?

How is tat relevant?

 

[james2ko]

It's really very simple.

Jesus either fulfilled all the messianic prophesies or he didn't. He didn't.

No matter how much you distort, manipulate, and create, that fact doesn't change.

The messianic prophesies are:

Michah 4:3

World Peace

Ezekiel 37

One unified king of the jews

A descendent from David (All tribal lineage comes from the father)

All the jews will come to Israel

All the jews will stay in Israel

The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

All nations will worship one G-D

None of these things happened. Hence, we know the messiah hasn't come yet.

Also no jewish messiah would ever claim to have divine power. That within itself is completely contradictory to the major tenent that G-D gave the jews.

He's fulfilling them at His second appearance, just as the Midrash Rabbah suggests:

"My beloved is like a gazelle': Israel, explained R. Isaac, said to the Holy One, blessed be He: ' Sovereign of the Universe! Thou hast told us that Thou wilt come to us first.’ ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘; as the gazelle appears and then disappears, so the first redeemer appeared and then disappeared. R. Berekiah in the name of R. Levi said: Like the first redeemer so will the final redeemer be. The first redeemer was Moses, who appeared to them and then disappeared. For how long did he disappear from their sight? R. Tanhuma said: Three months; accordingly it is written, And they met Moses and Aaron, etc. (ib. V, 20).2 The final redeemer will also appear to them and then disappear. (Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 11:2)​

This tradition tells us the Messiah would, like Moses, be revealed, then disappear and then be revealed again. The appearances of the Messiah would be like Moses, who was revealed to Israel. Then he disappeared when he ascended to commune with God on Mt. Sinai. While he was gone there was a great apostasy, and many believed he would never return (Ex. 32:1). When he returned he separated and judged the people and condemned those who had not repented (Ex. 32:26-28). The Midrash is telling us that the coming of Messiah would parallel these events!

This is off topic though, with gnostic's permission, I will continue to post.

 

[CG Didymus]

He's fulfilling them at His second appearance, just as the Midrash Rabbah suggests:

"My beloved is like a gazelle': Israel, explained R. Isaac, said to the Holy One, blessed be He: ' Sovereign of the Universe! Thou hast told us that Thou wilt come to us first.’ ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘; as the gazelle appears and then disappears, so the first redeemer appeared and then disappeared. R. Berekiah in the name of R. Levi said: Like the first redeemer so will the final redeemer be. The first redeemer was Moses, who appeared to them and then disappeared. For how long did he disappear from their sight? R. Tanhuma said: Three months; accordingly it is written, And they met Moses and Aaron, etc. (ib. V, 20).2 The final redeemer will also appear to them and then disappear. (Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 11:2)​

This tradition tells us the Messiah would, like Moses, be revealed, then disappear and then be revealed again. The appearances of the Messiah would be like Moses, who was revealed to Israel. Then he disappeared when he ascended to commune with God on Mt. Sinai. While he was gone there was a great apostasy, and many believed he would never return (Ex. 32:1). When he returned he separated and judged the people and condemned those who had not repented (Ex. 32:26-28). The Midrash is telling us that the coming of Messiah would parallel these events!

This is off topic though, with gnostic's permission, I will continue to post.

This is interesting, but still requires a Christian slanted interpretation, plus how many times do Christians call Jewish writings "traditions of men" and not "the Word of God"? So it is still picking and choosing ambiguous verses and bending them to say what you need them to say, plus it uses a non-canonical book.

To get back on point, does Isaiah, in the original, say a young girl is pregnant? One of the Christian responders, on some thread, claimed that the Masoretic text was toyed with and that the Septuagint reflected the true original. Have you ever heard anything like this? But, either way it creates a situation where the Hebrew Scriptures reliability is questionable. Which then makes it difficult for Christians to claim that the Scriptures were past down accurately with only a few minor errors that don't change any major Christian doctrine.

Yet, here we are debating a major Christian doctrine where the Jewish responders say, "No, Isaiah 7:14 is not even a prophesy and it the sign was for King Ahaz and fulfilled during his time." To make it work, Christians have to make the girl a virgin that was impregnated by the Holy Spirit 700 years later? They have to creatively interpret the verses to make the rest of the "sign" not part of the prophecy? What's going on? I do need some clarification here. The Jews sound much more honest about what their Scriptures mean and say than the Christians.

 

[Flankerl]

He's fulfilling them at His second appearance, just as the Midrash Rabbah suggests:

"My beloved is like a gazelle': Israel, explained R. Isaac, said to the Holy One, blessed be He: ' Sovereign of the Universe! Thou hast told us that Thou wilt come to us first.’ ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘; as the gazelle appears and then disappears, so the first redeemer appeared and then disappeared. R. Berekiah in the name of R. Levi said: Like the first redeemer so will the final redeemer be. The first redeemer was Moses, who appeared to them and then disappeared. For how long did he disappear from their sight? R. Tanhuma said: Three months; accordingly it is written, And they met Moses and Aaron, etc. (ib. V, 20).2 The final redeemer will also appear to them and then disappear. (Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 11:2)​

This tradition tells us the Messiah would, like Moses, be revealed, then disappear and then be revealed again. The appearances of the Messiah would be like Moses, who was revealed to Israel. Then he disappeared when he ascended to commune with God on Mt. Sinai. While he was gone there was a great apostasy, and many believed he would never return (Ex. 32:1). When he returned he separated and judged the people and condemned those who had not repented (Ex. 32:26-28). The Midrash is telling us that the coming of Messiah would parallel these events!

This is off topic though, with gnostic's permission, I will continue to post.

lol that Midrash is from the middle ages and they somehow speak of a future event. so the "redeemer" has yet to appear for the first time.


Also its a Midrash, if you know what that means.

 

[james2ko]

lol that Midrash is from the middle ages and they somehow speak of a future event. so the "redeemer" has yet to appear for the first time.

What's even funnier is how the Talmud makes it clear the Messiah was expected to come during the first century, but then goes to great lengths to explain why he supposedly missed the appointment

 

[Levite]

What's even funnier is how the Talmud makes it clear the Messiah was expected to come during the first century, but then goes to great lengths to explain why he supposedly missed the appointment

The Rabbis of the Talmud didn't expect the messiah to come during the first century, they hoped the messiah would come during the first century. There's a difference. They actually are pretty clear that the messiah could come at any time, in any generation, if the people prove worthy.

 

[james2ko]

The Rabbis of the Talmud didn't expect the messiah to come during the first century, they hoped the messiah would come during the first century. There's a difference. They actually are pretty clear that the messiah could come at any time, in any generation, if the people prove worthy.

Your term "hope" and my term "expected" are synonyms:

Synonyms for hope: noun. expectation - expectancy - expectance - trust - promise --verb. trust - expect - anticipate

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.... Rab said: All the predestined dates have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.
(b.San. 97a-97b)​

This passage of Talmud tells us that the school of the prophet Elijah taught that the ages of this world could be broken down into three ages (each of about 2,000 years). 2,000 years of chaos, 2,000 years of Torah and 2,000 years of the days of Messiah. This would place Messiah's coming right around the first century. The Talmud then continues through page 99a trying to explain why Messiah did not come in the first century after all.

That is all I'm going to say. As this is off topic. If you'd like to discuss it further, start a thread. There's plenty of evidence in your own writings pointing to Christ as the Messiah.

 

[dantech]

Your term "hope" and my term "expected" are synonyms:

Synonyms for hope: noun. expectation - expectancy - expectance - trust - promise --verb. trust - expect - anticipate

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.... Rab said: All the predestined dates have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.
(b.San. 97a-97b)​

This passage of Talmud tells us that the school of the prophet Elijah taught that the ages of this world could be broken down into three ages (each of about 2,000 years). 2,000 years of chaos, 2,000 years of Torah and 2,000 years of the days of Messiah. This would place Messiah's coming right around the first century. The Talmud then continues through page 99a trying to explain why Messiah did not come in the first century after all.

That is all I'm going to say. As this is off topic. If you'd like to discuss it further, start a thread. There's plenty of evidence in your own writings pointing to Christ as the Messiah.

 

[Levite]

Your term "hope" and my term "expected" are synonyms:

Synonyms for hope: noun. expectation - expectancy - expectance - trust - promise --verb. trust - expect - anticipate

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.... Rab said: All the predestined dates have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds.
(b.San. 97a-97b)​

This passage of Talmud tells us that the school of the prophet Elijah taught that the ages of this world could be broken down into three ages (each of about 2,000 years). 2,000 years of chaos, 2,000 years of Torah and 2,000 years of the days of Messiah. This would place Messiah's coming right around the first century. The Talmud then continues through page 99a trying to explain why Messiah did not come in the first century after all.

That is all I'm going to say. As this is off topic. If you'd like to discuss it further, start a thread. There's plenty of evidence in your own writings pointing to Christ as the Messiah.

First of all, "hope" is not synonymous with "expect" in this context. "Expect" means a belief that something will occur. "Hope" means a desire that something should be-- it doesn't necessarily imply an expectation of occurrence.

Second of all, that quote from Sanhedrin is one midrash among many. It is a midrash, not a theological dogma. And it is part of a huge number of Midrashim about the world and the creation and the messiah. There is no reason to think that all the Rabbis even knew that particular midrash, let alone all believed it literally.

Third of all, Midrashim in the Talmud ascribed to bei Eliyahu are of unknown origins, but bear the hallmarks of classic Tannaitic Midrashic composition. There is no evidence to support that they originate in a school of philosophical or mystical thought founded by the prophet Elijah, especially given that there is no evidence that such a school ever existed, let alone transmitted midrashim.

And fourth, if one were going to drash according to this midrash, it would've been far more reasonable to drash it with Bar Kochba in mind, as Rabbi Akiva did, since Bar Kochba at least came a bit closer to doing anything remotely messianic than did Jesus.

 

[CMike]

He's fulfilling them at His second appearance, just as the Midrash Rabbah suggests:

"My beloved is like a gazelle': Israel, explained R. Isaac, said to the Holy One, blessed be He: ' Sovereign of the Universe! Thou hast told us that Thou wilt come to us first.’ ' My beloved is like a gazelle ‘; as the gazelle appears and then disappears, so the first redeemer appeared and then disappeared. R. Berekiah in the name of R. Levi said: Like the first redeemer so will the final redeemer be. The first redeemer was Moses, who appeared to them and then disappeared. For how long did he disappear from their sight? R. Tanhuma said: Three months; accordingly it is written, And they met Moses and Aaron, etc. (ib. V, 20).2 The final redeemer will also appear to them and then disappear. (Midrash Rabbah Bamidbar 11:2)​

This tradition tells us the Messiah would, like Moses, be revealed, then disappear and then be revealed again. The appearances of the Messiah would be like Moses, who was revealed to Israel. Then he disappeared when he ascended to commune with God on Mt. Sinai. While he was gone there was a great apostasy, and many believed he would never return (Ex. 32:1). When he returned he separated and judged the people and condemned those who had not repented (Ex. 32:26-28). The Midrash is telling us that the coming of Messiah would parallel these events!

This is off topic though, with gnostic's permission, I will continue to post.

Link?

 

[gnostic]

Is the Masoretic text reliable or was it changed somewhere along the way? If so, then what in the Hebrew Scriptures is reliable? One thing for sure, the Christian version does change it. What it says in Matthew and what it says in Isaiah say and mean two different things, both can't be right. So is Matthew right and the Masoretic text wrong?

Good points.

If the Septuagint was so accurate, why did all the English translations that included both Hebrew and Christian scriptures (KJV, NIV, NASB, NRSV, etc) used only the Septuagint bible?

The only people who used the Septuagint in its entirety, are the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Why bother using Masoretic Text (MT) at all when translating the Hebrew Scriptures (Tanakh or Old Testament) if MT was so corrupted?

When the translators were involved in translating the KJV, the majority of the OT translation was based on translation of the Masoretic Text.

The verse in Isaiah (7:14) wasn't corrupted, damaged or missing, AND YET, the KJV translators used the Greek Septuagint for that verse, because the author of that gospel (Matthew?) had quoted from the Septuagint.

I find it downright icky that the majority of the so-called prophecies or signs quoted by Matthew and other NT authors, the KJV had selectively used those quotes with the Septuagint as it base for the translations and not the Masoretic Text.

So why did Matthew quote from LLX sources and not from Hebrew sources?

Why did the KJV translation selectively used LXX for some tiny parts of the OT, when elsewhere they had used MT as it basis for the OT translation, including the chapter Isaiah 7?

Why is it, when I looked at the similarities between Isaiah 7:14 and Genesis 16:11, did KJV translated harah differently?

(On the majority occasion, when and where harah appeared, the KJV had translated them "with child". Hence woman "is pregnant".

LXX may have used parthenos, the Greek word for "virgin", but the Book of Isaiah was not written in Greek original.)

 

[gnostic]

This passage of Talmud tells us that the school of the prophet Elijah taught that the ages of this world could be broken down into three ages (each of about 2,000 years). 2,000 years of chaos, 2,000 years of Torah and 2,000 years of the days of Messiah. This would place Messiah's coming right around the first century.

If how you're interpreting the Talmud on Elijah to be true about 2000 years, then wouldn't the messiah arrive around 1100 or 1200 CE? Not in 1st century CE.

 

[james2ko]

If how you're interpreting the Talmud on Elijah to be true about 2000 years, then wouldn't the messiah arrive around 1100 or 1200 CE? Not in 1st century CE.

With the help of the Tanakh's chronology, we can calculate approximately 4000 years from Adam to the birth of Christ. That would put His birth somewhere close to the first century.