Did Jesus say he was God???

[icebuddy]

The one who believes Jesus said he was God. And if you're going to bring up John 8:58, I've covered that in many tens of pages on this thread alone.

I have an interesting view on John 8:58... Lets go to John 18:6 where Jesus tells those about to arrest him that he is the "I AM" or says "I AM" in the same way. What happens? They all fell to the ground and Simon starts to attack cutting an ear off. Jesus tells us earlier that we would all know that "I AM" when Judas betrays me. (John 13:18) Every knee bowing to the Great I AM but not all will have inner submission.

Now Read 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

in Love,
Tom

 

[Shermana]

ets go to John 18:6 where Jesus tells those about to arrest him that he is the "I AM" or says "I AM" in the same way

That's not what Jesus tells them. He says "I have been". If he was to say he was THE "I am", and the name itself is I SHALL BE, not I am, he would say "I am I am", simply stating "I am" does not make you say "I am". Even prominent Trinitarian scholars have agreed that it should read "I have been" in relation to existing before Abraham.

they all fell to the ground and Simon starts to attack cutting an ear off

So why wouldn't anyone fall to the ground to anyone else who said "I am"? Do people fall to the ground when I say "I am"? No? Do you think I am saying I am God when I say "I am"? Maybe they were all shocked to see this miracle worker who could heal the sick and the lame in the flesh?

This idea of trying to shoehorn the phrase "I am" to mean "I am I am" is yet another example of the blatant disregard for grammar among Trinitarians.

I have been over this over 20 times on this thread.

 

[Shermana]

Understand that those are your thoughts being inserted here just as you may believe others like myself do the same.

Exactly. Everything on everything is everyone's thoughts.

I personally see God Almighty as the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. However, I have seen you have been here for a long long time and your love for God is not unseen. I have taken some time away from these board because of many reasons, but your zeal for God is great.

...

A point I would like to make is this: If angels and/or messangers of God can and are looked upon as God himself, how much more can we look to Jesus as God himself? Not to mention how Jesus on earth tells us to Follow Him, His commandments, His people, ext... (Not to mention he Created and always existed with the Father and was brought forth at the proper time)

He didn't necessarily ALWAYS exist with the Father, and besides, if he was the First created being, he would ALWAYS exist from that time on. "In the beginning" can also mean "When things were first made, starting with the Logos". Does God have a beginning? Or does Creation? Angels are not looked upon as God Himself, they are looked at as representatives of Him, Jesus is just a chief messenger, a much higher ranked one, the highest ranked one, but still not God Himself. Jesus's says His teachings are not His own, but of the one who sent Him.

Fair enough, but i like to see that the 3rd person was in heaven pulling the lever...

I can see it as the Targumic Memra.

The Jews also didnt believe in Jesus

That has no bearing in how to interpret that Genesis verse.

Anyways, May love follow us while we post...

Indeed. I can get very combative.

 

[horizon_mj1]

WHYYYYYYY are you still arguing this topic???? You are aware that in most book stores you can pick up a copy of the Bible that has everything that Jesus was to say "verbatim" written in red ink.

 

[Philomath]

Neither Does Jesus say he is an Angel, Micheal, archangel, Savior, King, or many other things. What are your thoughts on that? Do you believe Jesus is your King and Savior?

In Love,
Tom

I don't believe any of that. I believe in only the historical Jesus who was most likely a Jewish sage of some sort who preached and was executed. So no I don't believe Jesus is my "King and Savior".

 

[1robin]

I don't believe any of that. I believe in only the historical Jesus who was most likely a Jewish sage of some sort who preached and was executed. So no I don't believe Jesus is my "King and Savior".

That is the one role he did not leave open. An actual "sage" summed it up best:


“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Anyone who says I am from God is either the worst form of liar or speaking the greatest truth possible.

 

[Philomath]

That is the one role he did not leave open. An actual "sage" summed it up best:


“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Anyone who says I am from God is either the worst form of liar or speaking the greatest truth possible.

CS Lewis quote means essentially nothing because A) No one knows what Jesus actually said. B) No where in the bible(you won't find an explicit quote) did Jesus say he was God.

CS Lewis's quote also has no bearing on the actual evidence that there is for the historical Jesus

"I am from God" can me a multitude of things depending on how you look at it.

 

[1robin]

CS Lewis quote means essentially nothing because A) No one knows what Jesus actually said. B) Nowhere in the bible(you won't find an explicit quote) did Jesus say he was God.

CS Lewis's quote also has no bearing on the actual evidence that there is for the historical Jesus
"I am from God" can me a multitude of things depending on how you look at it.

You packed a lot of "wrong" into a very few sentences here IMO.

A) C.S. Lewis is a very well-credentialed and well respected scholar. This quote is one of his most famous and well quoted by imminent theologians and philosophers. What qualifications do you have that would make a statement as rash as you did something I should give credibility? If I said Newton was wrong about calculus or Eisntein was wrong about physics I would expect to be able to supply about a thousand pages on why to be taken seriously.

B) My argument was about a concept and the context that concept comes within. It was not an argument designed to show the context was true. They are independent issues requiring different argumentation. The concept of Christ comes within the statement credited to him. If you deny the statement you deny the concept and there exists no grounds for you to then claim anything about a concept stripped of context. If we have no idea what Jesus claimed (and that is not the verdict of NT scholars on all sides) then there is no basis for any kind or argument at all. We have only three choices and none of them are consistent with your position.

1. Christ spoke the words credited to him and he was speaking the truth and therefore divine.
2. He spoke those words but was lying and as Lewis said the worst of all evils.
3. We have no idea what he said and no argument can be made.

B) There is no reason on any level to demand that Jesus claim any specific set of words we demand. That is usually a Muslim argument and IMO one of the worst in a long sad list of argument against Christ's divinity. We know trees are trees because they act like trees not because they have declared so. I know you are a human because you post like one even though you never claimed to be one. I believe Christ to be divine because he claimed to be eternal, to forgive sin (only God can do that), and accepted being called God and worshiped at appropriate times. Let me clarify by replacing God with "divinely inspired" in Lewis's statement to make it reflect my own claims more accurately.

C) Lewis was (nor was I) attempting to prove Jesus existed. He and I were trying to show that if he did what that would mean. You can't consider him outside the context that he comes in. If you deny the Bible's accuracy then Christ goes away with his words. You can't make any argument that the non-supernatural claims about him are accurate but the same authors went insane whenever their claims were supernatural.

 

[Muffled]

That's not what Jesus tells them. He says "I have been". If he was to say he was THE "I am", and the name itself is I SHALL BE, not I am, he would say "I am I am", simply stating "I am" does not make you say "I am". Even prominent Trinitarian scholars have agreed that it should read "I have been" in relation to existing before Abraham.



So why wouldn't anyone fall to the ground to anyone else who said "I am"? Do people fall to the ground when I say "I am"? No? Do you think I am saying I am God when I say "I am"? Maybe they were all shocked to see this miracle worker who could heal the sick and the lame in the flesh?

This idea of trying to shoehorn the phrase "I am" to mean "I am I am" is yet another example of the blatant disregard for grammar among Trinitarians.

I have been over this over 20 times on this thread.

I believe only God can say I am and have people fall to the ground.

God is not subject to grammar restrictions. The text in the old testament is not only "I am the one who is" but it also contains "I am."

 

[Muffled]

That's not what Jesus tells them. He says "I have been". If he was to say he was THE "I am", and the name itself is I SHALL BE, not I am, he would say "I am I am", simply stating "I am" does not make you say "I am". Even prominent Trinitarian scholars have agreed that it should read "I have been" in relation to existing before Abraham.

So why wouldn't anyone fall to the ground to anyone else who said "I am"? Do people fall to the ground when I say "I am"? No? Do you think I am saying I am God when I say "I am"? Maybe they were all shocked to see this miracle worker who could heal the sick and the lame in the flesh?

This idea of trying to shoehorn the phrase "I am" to mean "I am I am" is yet another example of the blatant disregard for grammar among Trinitarians.

I have been over this over 20 times on this thread.

I believe only God can say I am and have people fall to the ground.

I believe God is not subject to grammar restrictions. The text in the old testament is not only "I am the one who is" but it also contains "I am."

I believe you have never proven your point.

 

[Muffled]

CS Lewis quote means essentially nothing because A) No one knows what Jesus actually said. B) No where in the bible(you won't find an explicit quote) did Jesus say he was God.

CS Lewis's quote also has no bearing on the actual evidence that there is for the historical Jesus

"I am from God" can me a multitude of things depending on how you look at it.

I beleive Jesus knows what He said.

I believe that is a diversion from the fact that he did say it in other ways. If I said an oval object coming out of a chicken you should be able to identify it as an egg even if I don't say "egg."

I believe with Jesus it means only that He is God in the flesh.

 

[Rose Quartz]

Jesus was not God or divine - he was simply a man. The stories and quotations from the Bible are all based on hearsay which was written about 300 years after his so called death. In order for them to be worth writing about they needed to sound extraordinary, so the stories have been embellished. They have also been translated into other languages and changed even since then, so none of it can be relied upon.

 

[Philomath]

I beleive Jesus knows what He said.

I believe Jesus knows what he said too.

I believe that is a diversion from the fact that he did say it in other ways. If I said an oval object coming out of a chicken you should be able to identify it as an egg even if I don't say "egg."

Can you find a direct quote in the bible where Jesus explicitly says "I am God"?

I believe with Jesus it means only that He is God in the flesh.

I don't believe so.

 

[icebuddy]

That's not what Jesus tells them. He says "I have been". If he was to say he was THE "I am", and the name itself is I SHALL BE, not I am, he would say "I am I am", simply stating "I am" does not make you say "I am". Even prominent Trinitarian scholars have agreed that it should read "I have been" in relation to existing before Abraham.

Thats an English breakdown in my opinion. For Example Jesus says "I AM" (Ego Eimi) in other parts and the English translators add the word "He" as in "I Am" he. I remember that in a JW bible called the NWT that they listed it as "I have been" then added some Greek Grammer that didnt exist in the Greek to support it. Anyways, you are missing my point, because i personally believe no matter how many bible passage are changed or altered one way or the other, there are many more unseen that point Jesus as Jehovah or YHWH.

So why wouldn't anyone fall to the ground to anyone else who said "I am"? Do people fall to the ground when I say "I am"? No? Do you think I am saying I am God when I say "I am"? Maybe they were all shocked to see this miracle worker who could heal the sick and the lame in the flesh?

It is my understanding that only the one who is the Great "I AM" holds that power. That is why when Jesus said " I AM" they all fell down. Why then and no where else? Because Jesus was fulfilling his own prophesy when he said that when he is betrayed by Judas that you will believe that I AM. (Ego Eimi)

Then Jesus is betrayed at John 18:6 and shows them his true power when he says I Am (Ego Eimi) and everyone falls to the ground as Every knee will bow when revealed or unvieled.

This idea of trying to shoehorn the phrase "I am" to mean "I am I am" is yet another example of the blatant disregard for grammar among Trinitarians.

That is your freedom, just as we all have. However, ask yourself why when Jesus said (Ego Eimi) I AM, did everyone fall down to him? What was Jesus Revealing and why right after the words (Ego Eimi) John 18:6 ? Also ask yourself, why didnt everyone change their mind knowing something very powerfull just happend? Maybe we shouldnt take Jesus in... (because their unbelief is very strong)

I have been over this over 20 times on this thread.

ill keep trying until you get it... (Joke) HAHA

Love,
Tom

 

[Shermana]

Thats an English breakdown in my opinion. For Example Jesus says "I AM" (Ego Eimi) in other parts and the English translators add the word "He" as in "I Am" he. I remember that in a JW bible called the NWT that they listed it as "I have been" then added some Greek Grammer that didnt exist in the Greek to support it. Anyways, you are missing my point, because i personally believe no matter how many bible passage are changed or altered one way or the other, there are many more unseen that point Jesus as Jehovah or YHWH.

I don't see what's so "English" about it, the grammar issue is the same in the Greek, the English is just the xplanation. The NWT is not the only one to do this. Trinitarians like Goodspeed and Moffatt and others have as well. This common myth that only JWs write it like that needs to end. The English translation "I am he" is a way of saying even among Trinitarians "Umm, please don't abuse this concept of "I am" to mean he's saying "I am I am" or of acknowledging the actual meaning of that phrase. What you're doing is using a Theological case to get around the basics of the grammar. It would have to be "I am I am", not just saying "I am", and the tense of the verb is "I have been" in John 8:58, and the name itself is "I shall be". Those are the basics. No amount of Theological explanation will get around the basic grammar. The Theology must be based ON the grammar, not the other way around.

It is my understanding that only the one who is the Great "I AM" holds that power.

Let me get this straight, you think there were no miracle workers whatsoever throughout the OT who weren't God in the flesh or do I misunderstand you?

That is why when Jesus said " I AM" they all fell down.

No they fell down because this was the great and powerful miracle worker/"sorcerer" they had heard about.

Why then and no where else?

Because they had never seen this miracle worker before. Why did Moses not fall down at the name when he was told it? Was he more prepared?

Because Jesus was fulfilling his own prophesy when he said that when he is betrayed by Judas that you will believe that I AM. (Ego Eimi)

Again, he would have to say "I am I am" for your point to be valid. The name "I am" is a name, it's not a way of saying "I am God", it's a name. You'd have to say "I am I am".

Then Jesus is betrayed at John 18:6 and shows them his true power when he says I Am (Ego Eimi) and everyone falls to the ground as Every knee will bow when revealed or unvieled.

They drew to the ground.

Why do you think practically every translations adds the He there? Are they not Trintarian enough? Are these Trinitarian translations trying to hide a key Trinity verse for some reason?

That is your freedom, just as we all have. However, ask yourself why when Jesus said (Ego Eimi) I AM, did everyone fall down to him?

Easily answered. This was the great and powerful Jesus revealing himself.

What was Jesus Revealing and why right after the words (Ego Eimi) John 18:6 ?

That he was Jesus of Nazareth. Read the passage. Has nothing to do with revealing He was God.

Also ask yourself, why didnt everyone change their mind knowing something very powerfull just happend? Maybe we shouldnt take Jesus in... (because their unbelief is very strong)

Why didn't everyone change their mind indeed. Because they weren't acknowledging that this was God, they were acknowledging that this was the great and mighty miracle working Jesus they had heard about.

ill keep trying until you get it... (Joke) HAHA

What I get is that your arguments are full of holes. Would you consider the possibility of "getting" what I am saying or does it only go one way?

 

[icebuddy]

Exactly. Everything on everything is everyone's thoughts.

I have a few JW buddies that we debate back and forth. (kids play hockey together) They might not be serious JWs, but they where brought up as kids and i have them thinking all the time... However, only God can change hearts (mine, theirs, or yours)

He didn't necessarily ALWAYS exist with the Father

They way i read the Bible Jesus was always there (John 1:1-3, but look at 1John1:1-5 where the Word(Jesus) is called Everlasting Life, word of Life, and more. These are not words used to describe a non-eternal Word...

and besides, if he was the First created being, he would ALWAYS exist from that time on.

The bible in my understanding doesnt say that. Jesus is called the Firstborn(heir) and the Beginning and End of all Creation. (Not that he has a beginning, but he is outside it)

"In the beginning" can also mean "When things were first made, starting with the Logos"

So you know, I dont just hang my hat on John 1:1 although to me it says "In the beginning the Word was Already There" and 1st john says the Word is Eternal and Everlasting.

Does God have a beginning?

No, but it is said of him(FATHER)that he is the "Beginning and End" of all things.

Jesus is just a chief messenger

Ouch... i will not be saying that at the Pearly Gates...

but still not God Himself. Jesus's says His teachings are not His own, but of the one who sent Him.

When I read the Bible and Passages where Jesus was in the form of God and Emptied "Himself" to become a man i see differently. For example, why doesnt the bible say God Emptied Jesus? Why Jesus empty Himself... And as a Man, lower than the angels, Jesus looked to God the Father for all things.

Indeed. I can get very combative.

No big deal, its only our eternal lives at stake. LOL

In Love,
Tom

PS - Im out of Time, but love talking about Jesus!!!

 

[icebuddy]

I don't believe any of that. I believe in only the historical Jesus who was most likely a Jewish sage of some sort who preached and was executed. So no I don't believe Jesus is my "King and Savior".

Ok Got it, thanks for clearing that up. May I ask what your belief is?

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

Jesus was not God or divine - he was simply a man. The stories and quotations from the Bible are all based on hearsay which was written about 300 years after his so called death. In order for them to be worth writing about they needed to sound extraordinary, so the stories have been embellished. They have also been translated into other languages and changed even since then, so none of it can be relied upon.

Let me ask you a question. When was the First Holy Temple of the Jewish People destroyed? What year?

In Love,
Tom

 

[Philomath]

Ok Got it, thanks for clearing that up. May I ask what your belief is?

In Love,
Tom

If you mean what my religion is..I'm an Omnist.

 

[icebuddy]

I don't see what's so "English" about it, the grammar issue is the same in the Greek, the English is just the xplanation. The NWT is not the only one to do this. Trinitarians like Goodspeed and Moffatt and others have as well. This common myth that only JWs write it like that needs to end.

Single man translations are not translations that I use. (They can and do follow what the translator believes) What ever we agree on, you must also see "I AM" as a legitimate translation of the text as well. If you want to get down to it, pick up a Greet to English translation. If your JW, they have a good one called The Kingdom interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. All other English Translations will insert bias belief at some point, but the Greek to English part is word for word translated before any interpitation is inserted.

The English translation "I am he" is a way of saying even among Trinitarians "Umm, please don't abuse this concept of "I am" to mean he's saying "I am I am" or of acknowledging the actual meaning of that phrase.

Get a Greek to English translation and then lets see what it says. Everyone i have picked up, including the anti-trinitarian baised KIT by the JW's says "I AM" then off to the side their english interpitation of that...

What you're doing is using a Theological case to get around the basics of the grammar.

i do not see it that way. The Greek words (Ego Eimi) are used in all the passages I brought up. including the one where after saying "Ego Eimi" They fell to the ground.

Why do you think practically every translations adds the He there? Are they not Trintarian enough? Are these Trinitarian translations trying to hide a key Trinity verse for some reason?

God reveals things at different times and maybe the people translated for easy reading, but what i am showing you is much deeper. (Going back to the Greek text will help one see this) Every bible I have seen with translation helps say that the "HE" is added and not in the original text. I believe the NWT also has it in brackets showing it is not there in the text.

Easily answered. This was the great and powerful Jesus revealing himself.

Amen, but who does he reveal himself to be and why do they all fall down to the ground after saying Ego Eimi?

That he was Jesus of Nazareth. Read the passage. Has nothing to do with revealing He was God.

He is much more than just Jesus of Nazareth and I believe the bible if full of passages showing this.

Why didn't everyone change their mind indeed. Because they weren't acknowledging that this was God, they were acknowledging that this was the great and mighty miracle working Jesus they had heard about.

Thats your opinion, but Gods in control not these people, and Jesus says he must drink this cup that the Father gave him

What I get is that your arguments are full of holes. Would you consider the possibility of "getting" what I am saying or does it only go one way?

Only God can change ones heart (Yours or Mine). As of now if Jesus where to stand before me I would look the Image of God in the face(if possible) and say to him, My Lord and my God.


In Love,
tom