Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Xchristian]

I'm glad you asked:

John 18:33: Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
John 18:34: Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
John 18:35: Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
John 18:36: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37: Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

What in the world is god the son??

Very well said ..

By the time john [or whoever wrote this thing] wrote it, he was sure there's no jesus coming, and it's useless to wait (clever ain't it?)

so he changed the kingdom from earth to something unknown.

This naturally has nothing to do with the kingdom talked about when saying:

[Mt 6:10][ Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.]

At THAT time, when Matthew (or so they call it) was written, the kingdom was to be on earth, and they were praying to an imaginary entity to make that fancy kingdom to come.

When the fourth gospel was written, it was too late for that to come, so he changed plenty of things including also the prophecies .. etc.

In any event, I already stated that Jesus predicted:

1) The destruction of the temple (I already mentioned this before)

Matthew 24:1: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Matthew 24:2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I hope you understand this bit ...


1- The wailing wall is there for you to see ... it was one of the things .. jesus made a huge mistake ..

2- This was written during/after the war .. so perhaps Matthew {et al} thought it nice to make jesus a prophet and put this thing.


I hope that makes it clear.

2) He also predicted the coming of many wars and rumours of wars, and false christs. There's a couple for you.

Is that prince of peace? lol

b.t.w. ... I can't see one good reason why jesus is not himself a false christ, I can actually open a thread for this particular bit if you wish.

I wasn't talking about prayer. The use of the word "Pray" in my previous message is akin to the word "Please".

Thanks, I hate that word, it's very demeaning.

 

[Conståntine]

Very well said ..

The bible says it well indeed.

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By the time john [or whoever wrote this thing] wrote it, he was sure there's no jesus coming, and it's useless to wait (clever ain't it?)

I've not graduated to the level of mindreader in order for me to describe John's thought process, and I have little inclination to accept your word on the matter either.

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so he changed the kingdom from earth to something unknown.

This naturally has nothing to do with the kingdom talked about when saying:

[Mt 6:10][ Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.]

At THAT time, when Matthew (or so they call it) was written, the kingdom was to be on earth, and they were praying to an imaginary entity to make that fancy kingdom to come.

Again, you have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

Luke 17:20: ¶And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom of heaven is within those who have the spirit of God in them - it dwells within the hearts of men.

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When the fourth gospel was written, it was too late for that to come, so he changed plenty of things including also the prophecies .. etc.

Provide proof of the aforementioned.

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I hope you understand this bit ...


1- The wailing wall is there for you to see ... it was one of the things .. jesus made a huge mistake ..

2- This was written during/after the war .. so perhaps Matthew {et al} thought it nice to make jesus a prophet and put this thing.

I hope that makes it clear.

Is that prince of peace? lol

The only thing that seems clear to me is that you are in all likelihood not an architect. The Wailing Wall formed the perimeter of the temple. It was in no way a part of the temple itself. That has to be the most ridiculous argument that I've heard yet.

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b.t.w. ... I can't see one good reason why jesus is not himself a false christ, I can actually open a thread for this particular bit if you wish.

If Jesus was to be tried in a court of law based upon the weight of your accusations and supply of evidence against him, he would sooner see his case summarily dismissed.

 

[Shermana]

For the record, the "Assumption of Moses" and other such writings may be what the Apostles had in mind when referring to "Whom Moses spoke of". Just sayin'.

 

[Xchristian]

I've not graduated to the level of mindreader in order for me to describe John's thought process, and I have little inclination to accept your word on the matter either.

Scholarship is on my side, so I am fine, thanks

Again, you have not a clue as to what you are talking about.

Luke 17:20: ¶And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luke 17:21: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

I wouldn't call that again, I would rather call it, another attempt to find an escape route.

The book attributed to Luke had been written by the time things were hopeless, no jesus, no come back, no hope.

This quotation wouldn't pass any sort of criteria.

While the one I quoted related to the kingdom being on earth.
'your kingdom come on earth as it is on heaven' ... This means it's an earthly kingdom.
I know you haven't the power to accept it, ..

For that kingdom to happen, Matthew says:

[Mt 24:44][ Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.]

That son of man will come to that kingdom .. I know the story is unrealistic and all that, but that's how things were at the time. Now there's no clouds, no coming, no nothing, so instead, make it' (inside you)

b.t.w. if it's withing you, why pray for it to come to earth?

The kingdom of heaven is within those who have the spirit of God in them - it dwells within the hearts of men.

I see, mythic kind of thing, sorry people had enough myth.
But, why pray for it to come to earth in the first place?

Provide proof of the aforementioned.

Are you aware of the time the books were written?

Let me give you an example:

This failed prophecy you had been on about for a few hours about destruction etc ..
How did the 4th gospel handle that issue?

Let's see, the destruction of everything .. the gJohn knew it's not on, so he made it temple only, and even that is not really attainable, ok let's say it's imaginary and put it this way:

[Jn 2:18][ The Jews then said to him, "What sign can you show us for doing this?"]
[Jn 2:19][ Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."]
[Jn 2:20][ The Jews then said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?"]
[Jn 2:21][ But he was speaking of the temple of his body.]

Pretty much like changing the destructive action jesus did in the temple, from the end of his life, to be at the beginning, ref: ch.2 in gJohn, xf: the synoptics.

That's why the 4th gospel is so different, try to read about textual criticism and you will learn better.

The only thing that seems clear to me is that you are in all likelihood not an architect. The Wailing Wall formed the perimeter of the temple. It is not the temple itself. That has to be the most ridiculous argument that I've heard yet.

lol ..
I am very sure jesus wasn't an architect either, and you are trying to force him to say what you want him to say to save him, but you are wrong sir.

[Mt 24:2][ Then he asked them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."]


Everything they can see, this is your perimeter of jesus destruction, that didn't happen. Unfortunately.

If Jesus was to be tried in a court of law based upon the weight of your accusations and supply of evidence against him, he would sooner see his case summarily dismissed.

I know, the father has framed him to effectively satisfy his blood thirst.
Some people do that, they would do anything to see blood.

By the way, .. Professor Helen Bond says that court is all imaginary.
the real jesus (if there was any) didn't get any trial in the first place.
St Pontius Pilate wasn't that kind.

 

[Shermana]

XChristian, I gotta agree that he was referring to the Temple itself, not the Wall.

Sure enough, the ENTIRE temple was destroyed or carted off to Rome to pay for the Coliseum.

 

[Xchristian]

shalom Shermana

I really hope I can please you by agreeing, but I am just reading the scripture itself.

Lets see if Mark can help:

[Mk 13:1][ As he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what large stones and what large buildings!"]
[Mk 13:2][ Then Jesus asked him, "Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."]

Mark is on about BUILDINGS .. not one ... plural.
The whole lot .. he didn't make any exceptions.

You know if he did? .. it would still be worse

Because he would then mean: the temple will be destroyed .. if one stone is destroyed other than the temple, the whole prophecy will again fail.


Let's now look at Luke ...

[Lk 21:5][ When some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and gifts dedicated to God, he said,]
[Lk 21:6][ "As for these things that you see, the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another; all will be thrown down."]


You see? problem isn't it?

ok how about John? ... it's disappeared .. wonder why?


SImples!

Mark was written between 65-70 .. (scholarship consensus)
Matthew was written 70-75 .. (scholarship consensus)
Luke was written about the same time as Matthew (scholarship consensus)

Luke and Matthew and Mark were written some considerable distance away from Jerusalem, so their news would never get that specific and that one wall still stands.

John was written between 90 and 125 CE. .. ah that's why ...
By THAT time, there was no hope the whole lot would be destroyed
Something needs to be done about it .. he just removed it.

If you wish, I don't mind giving you another problem which went under the scissors of John ... the Gethsemane garden affair? .. there you go.

 

[Xchristian]

By the way, I read an apologetic's defense before and it was along the same lines ...
As if jesus said explicitly that temple would be destroyed!

 

[Shermana]

I would say a wall ain't a "great building."

 

[Xchristian]

I would say a wall ain't a "great building."

how are buildings formed?

have you ever seen a building without walls?

...

the other thing is that he didn't specify anything, he said ALL .. the whole lot.

let me give you the criteria of what is to be destroyed again:

[Mt 24:2][ Then he asked them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."]

everything .. a.l.l. .. not one thing .. the whole lot Shermanah.

He really hasn't specified anything.

Luke is more clearer:


[Lk 21:6][ "As for these things that you see, the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another; all will be thrown down."]



Everything they see, all that falls under their eyes .. everything.

I really can't make it any easier.

I have read theories about it and this particular bit is agreed upon, no scholar differed

I put a separate entry to show that I have read apologetics response on this.

The western wall is part and parcel of the thingS that their eyes fell upon.

 

[Ken Brown]

how are buildings formed?

have you ever seen a building without walls?

...

the other thing is that he didn't specify anything, he said ALL .. the whole lot.

let me give you the criteria of what is to be destroyed again:

[Mt 24:2][ Then he asked them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."]

everything .. a.l.l. .. not one thing .. the whole lot Shermanah.

He really hasn't specified anything.

Luke is more clearer:


[Lk 21:6][ "As for these things that you see, the days will come when not one stone will be left upon another; all will be thrown down."]



Everything they see, all that falls under their eyes .. everything.

I really can't make it any easier.

I have read theories about it and this particular bit is agreed upon, no scholar differed

I put a separate entry to show that I have read apologetics response on this.

The western wall is part and parcel of the thingS that their eyes fell upon.

Hi Xchristian, it's really great how well you can stay on topic with the OP. Now, was Yeshua the reincarnation of Moses? And WHO is THAT Prophet that Moses predicted WOULD come? KB

 

[Conståntine]

Scholarship is on my side, so I am fine, thanks

Except when it comes to differentiating between the actual temple buildings, and a wall outside of its premisses?

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I wouldn't call that again, I would rather call it, another attempt to find an escape route.

If you say so.

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The book attributed to Luke had been written by the time things were hopeless, no jesus, no come back, no hope.

Unless you have concrete proof as to when the gospels were written, your statement is of no importance to myself.

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While the one I quoted related to the kingdom being on earth.
'your kingdom come on earth as it is on heaven' ... This means it's an earthly kingdom.

First of all, you need to read and transcribe carefully, as you have completely distorted the text. The bible says "let thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven" and not 'your kingdom come on earth as it is on heaven' (Matthew 6:10). In any event, I fail to see how God's will being done on earth automatically infers God's kingdom being based on earth. I cringe to think of the logical steps that will be denoted to show how you would have arrived at such a conclusion.

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I know you haven't the power to accept it, ..

For that kingdom to happen, Matthew says:

[Mt 24:44][ Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.]

That son of man will come to that kingdom .. I know the story is unrealistic and all that, but that's how things were at the time. Now there's no clouds, no coming, no nothing, so instead, make it' (inside you)

The Son Of Man is coming back to receive his saints into heaven and pronounce judgment on the world, and not to claim a kingdom as you speak. He would have long already claimed such a kingdom (Luke 19:14-27) You really need to study the bible a bit more carefully.

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b.t.w. if it's withing you, why pray for it to come to earth?

Another interesting choice of words.

In any event, I don't pray for the kingdom of God to come on earth, so you are asking the wrong person. I pray that the kingdom of God comes to the hearts and minds of others.

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Are you aware of the time the books were written?

Let me give you an example:

This failed prophecy you had been on about for a few hours about destruction etc ..
How did the 4th gospel handle that issue?

Let's see, the destruction of everything .. the gJohn knew it's not on, so he made it temple only, and even that is not really attainable, ok let's say it's imaginary and put it this way:

[Jn 2:18][ The Jews then said to him, "What sign can you show us for doing this?"]
[Jn 2:19][ Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."]
[Jn 2:20][ The Jews then said, "This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?"]
[Jn 2:21][ But he was speaking of the temple of his body.]

Pretty much like changing the destructive action jesus did in the temple, from the end of his life, to be at the beginning, ref: ch.2 in gJohn, xf: the synoptics.

If all of this typing was written to give me an idea as to when any of the biblical books were written, you have failed to do so. All of you have given me is your conjecture which neither impressed myself nor listed any concrete or approximate dates of any occurrences.

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That's why the 4th gospel is so different, try to read about textual criticism and you will learn better.

???!!

This statement makes no sense.

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lol ..
I am very sure jesus wasn't an architect either, and you are trying to force him to say what you want him to say to save him, but you are wrong sir.

[Mt 24:2][ Then he asked them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down."]


Everything they can see, this is your perimeter of jesus destruction, that didn't happen. Unfortunately.

Hard to believe that such an inane argument is still being totted. A temple is a temple, and a wall outside of the temple is a wall outside of a temple.

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Everything they see, all that falls under their eyes .. everything.

I really can't make it any easier.

I have read theories about it and this particular bit is agreed upon, no scholar differed

I put a separate entry to show that I have read apologetics response on this.

The western wall is part and parcel of the thingS that their eyes fell upon.

????

Can you please explain to me exactly what Peter, Andrew, James, John, and Jesus were specifically looking at when Jesus made the statement concerning the temple? And can you offer any proof that they observed what you claimed their eyes fell upon specifically?

 

[Xchristian]

Except when it comes to differentiating between the actual temple buildings, and a wall outside of its premisses?

Constantine, I had to ignore everything you wrote for two reasons

1- you are jumping over yourself, .. you tried this before (I know you have no other way out) and it failed, as jesus - I already told you, never talked in singular.
He said thingS .. and ALL .. so read it again.

2- honestly, this is a different topic.

 

[Xchristian]

Hi Xchristian, it's really great how well you can stay on topic with the OP. Now, was Yeshua the reincarnation of Moses? And WHO is THAT Prophet that Moses predicted WOULD come? KB

Thanks for this breath of real reasoning.

Well, if you ask me, I honestly don't believe both books.

Not because there's a cart, then there must be a horse.

Isaiah, Ezekiel, jesus, and others talked of things that never happened, we can't punish every author for having made up something at some stage when he saw fit.

Check Harold Camping, he's not very far from you.

 

[Ken Brown]

Thanks for this breath of real reasoning.

Well, if you ask me, I honestly don't believe both books.

Not because there's a cart, then there must be a horse.

Isaiah, Ezekiel, jesus, and others talked of things that never happened, we can't punish every author for having made up something at some stage when he saw fit.

Check Harold Camping, he's not very far from you.

Hi Xchristian, thank you. Now, if you really don't believe both books, why argue from them? If you argue from them, then you are bound by what they say, so either stop using arguments from them or accept when an argument is used from them, that isn't yours.

You will argue with your last breath that Yeshua stated John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah. I have argued out of the same book that Yeshua is THAT Prophet Moses said who would be like him. IF we use your reasoning and logic of what Moses said, then we should accept and believe that Yeshua is the reincarnation of Moses. Either you use what the books say, or you don't use what the books say. Don't ride on the fence. KB

 

[Xchristian]

Hi Xchristian, thank you. Now, if you really don't believe both books, why argue from them? If you argue from them, then you are bound by what they say, so either stop using arguments from them or accept when an argument is used from them, that isn't yours.

I never refused any argument from the book, yet I can't for a moment assume belief in them.

I don't have to be a christian to judge a plain sentence!

You will argue with your last breath that Yeshua stated John the Baptist was the reincarnated Elijah. I have argued out of the same book that Yeshua is THAT Prophet Moses said who would be like him. IF we use your reasoning and logic of what Moses said, then we should accept and believe that Yeshua is the reincarnation of Moses. Either you use what the books say, or you don't use what the books say. Don't ride on the fence. KB

good point, but unfortunately mixed view.

First:
When saying that jesus said that john is Elijah, that's a solid assumption, there to see. All in one book, one verse even from the same gospel

John the baptist doesn't need to be like Elijah, he IS Elijah, jesus says so.

Second:
The jesus being like Moses thing is a cut argument. jesus doesn't have to be the person spoken of in the OT.. that's a far fetched moot assumption.

If you wish to make first similar to second, at least show me that jesus is Moses (not like Moses as in first argument).

I hope that makes it clear.

 

[Ken Brown]

I never refused any argument from the book, yet I can't for a moment assume belief in them.

I don't have to be a christian to judge a plain sentence!

good point, but unfortunately mixed view.

First:
When saying that jesus said that john is Elijah, that's a solid assumption, there to see. All in one book, one verse even from the same gospel

John the baptist doesn't need to be like Elijah, he IS Elijah, jesus says so.

Second:
The jesus being like Moses thing is a cut argument. jesus doesn't have to be the person spoken of in the OT.. that's a far fetched moot assumption.

If you wish to make first similar to second, at least show me that jesus is Moses (not like Moses as in first argument).

I hope that makes it clear.

Hi XXchristian, here again, we are like a dog chasing it's tail. John the Baptist flatly denies that he is Elijah. And I don't know how many times it has been pointed out to you that the Jews were looking for the Messiah, Elijah, and THAT Prophet to appear. They were NOT looking for a 'reincarnation" of the Messiah, Elijah, or THAT Prophet. When Herod thought that Yeshua was John the Baptist, was he thinking that Yeshua was a "reincarnated" John the Baptist, or rather that John had risen? You keep trying to disregard the resurrection by teaching reincarnation, and a True Believer's HOPE is IN the resurrection, not reincarnation. Reincarnation is a doctrine of devils. KB

 

[Xchristian]

Hi XXchristian, here again, we are like a dog chasing it's tail. John the Baptist flatly denies that he is Elijah.

First
I really hope you understand that the writer of the 4th gospel is the one who is speaking, not john the baptist.

Second:
Alright then, jesus made a mistake!!!

When Herod thought that Yeshua was John the Baptist, was he thinking that Yeshua was a "reincarnated" John the Baptist, or rather that John had risen?

I would stay away from any claim of anyone being raised from the dead before jesus, as that is against christian doctrines, Saul/Paul says so.

..., and a True Believer's HOPE is IN the resurrection, not reincarnation. Reincarnation is a doctrine of devils. KB

But that's what jesus and people around him believed in!!

you also believe in it saying that jesus comes as Elijah, Elijah comes as what ever, that's reincarnation, but you just don't want to name it the right name.

Unless you believe in multiple resurrections!

 

[Shermana]

How did Jesus make a mistake?

John rightly denied he was Elijah even if he was Elijah's spirit reincarnated. Being the same spirit doesn't make you the same man. And that same applies for the Hebrews 9 verse about man dying once and then the judgment.

 

[Xchristian]

Shermana

I know what you are saying, but he doesn't wish to name X an X. he prefers to escape through the Y route.

 

[Philda Tressie]

True, resurrection and reincarnation are not the same. I have not find any Abrahamic Scripture proclaiming reincarnation. In the NT eternal life for those justified through Christ is mentioned several times, hence the immortality of the soul. However, man's (and women's!) soul will return to their own former bodies, i.e., be resurrected, on the Day of Judgement when the Lord will separate those who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and those destined for Hell. Both groups will experience Eternity. Read the Book of Revelation