Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Shermana]

Returning to the womb was a metaphor signifying returning to the earth:

Gen_3:19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
​

Notice how David describes his formation in his mother's womb:

Psa 139:13-15 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.​

After losing all of his possessions, Job utilized the same figurative language to lament the fact he came out of the womb (was born) with nothing and will return to the "womb" --the earth (dust) with nothing. The prophet Jonah also alludes to this figurative concept in a prayer while in the belly of the fish:

Jon 2:2 And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol [the grave] I cried, And You heard my voice​

If you're saying that the Earth is the mother's womb as David describes, that goes against what you're saying. The metaphor doesn't go both ways. If he says he was formed in the "depths of the Earth' as the Mother's womb, that means that the "Earth" metaphor would indeed be the womb. So naked returning to the womb doesn't mean going back to the Earth itself, but to the womb of another mother.

I don't see how Jonah's description of nearing death as Sheol fits what you're saying.

Returning to dust doesn't mean anything but the body returning to the dust.

 

[james2ko]

If you're saying that the Earth is the mother's womb as David describes, that goes against what you're saying. The metaphor doesn't go both ways. If he says he was formed in the "depths of the Earth' as the Mother's womb, that means that the "Earth" metaphor would indeed be the womb. So naked returning to the womb doesn't mean going back to the Earth itself, but to the womb of another mother. Returning to dust doesn't mean anything but the body returning to the dust.

David also used it speaking of the grave:

Psa 63:9-10 But those who seek my life, to destroy it, Shall go into the lower parts of the earth. 10 They shall fall by the sword; They shall be a portion for jackals.
​

Unless you want to go out on a long skinny limb and say David wished his enemies go back into their mother's womb, the metaphor between the mother's womb and the grave must stand.

 

[Shermana]

David also used it speaking of the grave:

Psa 63:9-10 But those who seek my life, to destroy it, Shall go into the lower parts of the earth. 10 They shall fall by the sword; They shall be a portion for jackals.
​

Unless you want to go out on a long skinny limb and say David wished his enemies go back into their mother's womb, the metaphor between the mother's womb and the grave must stand.

Well then, perhaps you'd like to meet halfway and say that when David said "formed in the depths of the Earth" it doesn't necessarily imply that Job meant some other womb when he said he returns to the womb.

 

[james2ko]

Well then, perhaps you'd like to meet halfway and say that when David said "formed in the depths of the Earth" it doesn't necessarily imply that Job meant some other womb when he said he returns to the womb.

Oh but it does:

Job 31:15 Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Job 38:8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,​

Unless you want to go out on an even thinner limb and say Job implied the sea to burst forth from a mother's literal womb, the metaphor between mother's womb and the lowest part of the earth (underground/the grave) used by both David and Job has to stand.

 

[Shermana]

Oh but it does:

Job 31:15 Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same One fashion us in the womb?

Job 38:8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb,​

Unless you want to go out on an even thinner limb and say Job implied the sea to burst forth from a mother's literal womb, the metaphor between mother's womb and the lowest part of the earth (underground/the grave) used by both David and Job has to stand.

The word "womb" in Job 1:21 is Strong's Hebrew: 990. ??????? (beten) -- belly, body, womb

The word "Womb" in Job 38:8 is Strong's Hebrew: 7358. ?????? (rechem) -- womb

With that said, your argument is that Job is referring to two different wombs with the same use of the word in 1:21, doesn't make much sense. Beten seems to only ever refer to the physical human abdomen without exception in all its uses.

Besides, your own example indicates that the "lowest part of the Earth" is in reference to the womb itself regardless. The word "Rechem" has a more loose and possibly metaphorical meaning, including the use of "birth" itself. It can also be used to mean "The mother herself": So it essentially means "The source" rather than a uniquely specific reference to physical wombs per se.

http://bible.cc/job/24-20.htm

The word Beten, used in 1:21, not so much. You have one case with your use in 2:2 for "The belly of hell" though but it doesn't mean "The source of hell", the use of "belly" in its one time use there would be much similar to a reference to a physical human belly, since he was in fact...in the physical belly of a fish. He may have very well meant "The belly of death" as in describing the belly he was in which was his doom.

Habakuk 3:16

KJV: When I heard, my belly trembled;

So it can in fact go other way (And with the "belly" example of the fish, may in fact necessarily only ever mean physical belly for Beten) , and your attempt to pinpoint it as "necessarily" falls flat. Check. Might be mate.

 

[james2ko]

The word "womb" in Job 1:21 is Strong's Hebrew: 990. ??????? (beten) -- belly, body, womb

The word "Womb" in Job 38:8 is Strong's Hebrew: 7358. ?????? (rechem) -- womb

Checkmate. Thanks for playing.

Not quite amigo. Job used the two Hebrew words interchangeably:

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb [H7358] ?why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly [H990]?
​

 

[Shermana]

Not quite amigo. Job used the two Hebrew words interchangeably:

Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb [H7358] ?why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly [H990]?
​

See my edit. It's not exactly as interchangeable as you think. If anything this verse is showing the clear difference between "The (physical) belly" and the concept of "Matrix/source" which has a wider application.

 

[james2ko]

See my edit. It's not exactly as interchangeable as you think. If anything this verse is showing the clear difference between "The (physical) belly" and the concept of "Matrix/source" which has a wider application.

The metaphor is quite clear from all of the passages presented, Shermana. It's ok to be wrong. Believe it or not, there's times when I'm wrong (but not in this case) . We are all growing in knowledge and learning bits and pieces from each other.

 

[Shermana]

The metaphor is quite clear from all of the passages presented, Shermana. It's ok to be wrong. Believe it or not, there's times when I'm wrong (but not in this case) . We are all growing in knowledge and learning bits and pieces from each other.

What a nice way of saying "nuh uh".

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Xchristian,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM,
You may be unaware, but you really made my day, thank you! Believing in my preexistence, I am a dreamer of dreams, and as such, I am an ancient one as YAHWEH declares in this scripture:
Joel 2:28
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your ancient ones shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
The most notable dreamer being my great, great, great.....grandpa, Joseph, from whom according to the flesh, I descend!
Thanking you again for your acknowledgement, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Continuing from post #258:
The Author of the Book of Hebrews states this concerning My Messiah Yahushua:
Hebrews 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to ELOHIM, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Please notice that My Messiah was made like unto HIS brethren in all things, and please notice that My Messiah was tempted. ELOHIM cannot be tempted. The vast majority of Christians believe that My Messiah Yahushua possessed a dual nature. They believe that Yahushua was both true ELOHIM and true Man. Does this not conflict with the above statement about Messiah?
Indeed, Yahushua is the SEED of Abraham (see Galatians 3:16). What this all means is that the Messiah must come from the loins of Abraham (see Genesis 15:3-6). YAHWEH ELOHIM is not a man. If YAHWEH ELOHIM HIMSELF was the Father of Yahushua, then Yahushua is not the Seed of Abraham.
In like manner, this promise was made to David:
2 Samuel 7:12-16
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Please notice that the Seed of David must come forth from the bowels of David, and please notice that YAHWEH ELOHIM acknowledges that the Seed of David would be HIS Son. Again, if YAHWEH ELOHIM furnished the seed that conceived Yahushua in the womb of Mary, then Yahushua did not come forth from the bowels of David, and we must conclude that YAHWEH ELOHIM lied to both Abraham and David. How then does the Seed of David, who is mortal, become the Son of YAHWEH ELOHIM, who is immortal? This is important to seek out, Muffled.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You commented:
"I believe this is speculation. It is just as likely that God could have combined matching DNA in the egg without a sperm."
I agree that many things are possible, but understanding this issue requires that the statements made by YAHWEH to both Abraham and David be examined and believed.
YAHWEH told Abraham these things:
Genesis 15:4-5
4 And, behold, the word of YAHWEH came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Genesis 17:19
19 And ELOHIM said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
Notice above that the Seed of Abraham must come forth from his bowels. Also notice that this Seed does not come from just any woman; rather, this Seed must come forth from Abraham's wife, Sarah.
Both men and women have seed (please read Genesis 3:15 and Genesis 24:60). One big difference between men and women is that men can sow their seed; women cannot. I agree that when the seed of a man combines with the seed of a woman in her womb that the DNA of the new person is established. This new person is a combination of the DNA of his or her father and mother. This new person can then pass on that DNA to his or her offspring. Of course, DNA is physical. Our DNA is not spiritual
YAHWEH ELOHIM on the other hand is a spirit, and YAHWEH therefore has no physical DNA to give to anyone, but YAHWEH does possess spirit that can be passed from parents to children.
It is the spirit of YAHWEH that was given to Adam and Eve that enlivens our DNA. While the spirit is not our DNA, the spirit is an exact record of our DNA. The spirit in each of us knows everything about us, our physical makeup, our thoughts, our hopes, and dreams, our righteous deeds, our evil deeds, that is, all our transgressions. When we die, our spirit goes back to YAHWEH who does then possess an exact record of what we once were. This is why the resurrection is possible.
Please note for future discussion that I believe that our physical DNA can be altered by our physical activity, be that activity good or evil.
So, it is possible as you have expressed that the spirit of YAHWEH ELOHIM could have recreated or duplicated the DNA of Joseph in the womb of Mary, but this would mean that both the spirit of Abraham and the DNA of Abraham did not come from the loins of Abraham as promised, and, therefore, Messiah Yahushua is not a true son of Abraham, but rather a clone.
My Messiah Yahushua is not a clone. HE is a true son of Abraham, and HE is the Seed of Abraham as Paul does teach (Galatians 3:16).
I have much more to say in reply to you, and I will continue ELOHIM willing in my next post.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

I believe the texts about Abraham and David do not relate to the text about the conception of Jesus.

I believe a spirit can't be passed fromparents to children. I do believe parents can teach information on how to receive the Spirit of God.

I believe there is no evidence of this.

I believe this is speculation.

This is reasonable through Mary.

 

[Muffled]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Continuing from post #258:
The Author of the Book of Hebrews states this concerning My Messiah Yahushua:
Hebrews 2:16-17
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to ELOHIM, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Please notice that My Messiah was made like unto HIS brethren in all things, and please notice that My Messiah was tempted. ELOHIM cannot be tempted. The vast majority of Christians believe that My Messiah Yahushua possessed a dual nature. They believe that Yahushua was both true ELOHIM and true Man. Does this not conflict with the above statement about Messiah?
Indeed, Yahushua is the SEED of Abraham (see Galatians 3:16). What this all means is that the Messiah must come from the loins of Abraham (see Genesis 15:3-6). YAHWEH ELOHIM is not a man. If YAHWEH ELOHIM HIMSELF was the Father of Yahushua, then Yahushua is not the Seed of Abraham.
In like manner, this promise was made to David:
2 Samuel 7:12-16
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Please notice that the Seed of David must come forth from the bowels of David, and please notice that YAHWEH ELOHIM acknowledges that the Seed of David would be HIS Son. Again, if YAHWEH ELOHIM furnished the seed that conceived Yahushua in the womb of Mary, then Yahushua did not come forth from the bowels of David, and we must conclude that YAHWEH ELOHIM lied to both Abraham and David. How then does the Seed of David, who is mortal, become the Son of YAHWEH ELOHIM, who is immortal? This is important to seek out, Muffled.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

All possible with Mary.

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You wrote:
"I believe the texts about Abraham and David do not relate to the text about the conception of Jesus."
I am sorry, but despite your belief, they do relate. Here is one text:
Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Yahushua.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and YAHWEH ELOHIM shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Please notice in the above text that the Angel states that Yahushua is a descendant of HIS father David. How does this not relate to the promise made to David which I have previously quoted? If the Holy Spirit is the father of Yahushua, how then is David called HIS father?
Mary herself could not supply the male chromosome that caused the conception of Yahushua in her womb. Indeed, in Judaism, it is the woman or mother that does determine whether someone is Jewish or not, but the woman cannot convey tribal identity to her offspring. This can only be established through the sperm of the father.
The Holy Spirit is spirit, and, of course, we know or should know that spirit has not flesh (Luke 24:39). Believe what you want, but unless David, himself, is Holy Spirit, then Holy Spirit did not furnish the fleshly sperm that conceived Yahushua in the womb of Mary.
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[Latuwr]

Hi Muffled,
Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
Shabbat Shalom!
You wrote:
"I believe a spirit can't be passed fromparents to children. I do believe parents can teach information on how to receive the Spirit of God."
My Messiah said this about spirit:
John 6:63
63 It is the spirit that gives life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
The Apostle Paul also said this about spirit:
1 Corinthians 2:11
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of ELOHIM knoweth no man, but the Spirit of ELOHIM.
We each possess spirit in our flesh. Muffled, did you receive your spirit, which gives life to your flesh, did you receive your spirit from your parents, or did you in some other way receive the spirit which gives life to your flesh? Who is the source of your life, and how did that life come to you?
Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
Sincerely, Latuwr

 

[brucebroadwood]

Mathew 17:12 says that it was Elias not Elijah had already come.

 

[brucebroadwood]

Mathew 17:12 states that it was Elias not Elijah who had already come. The last chapter of Malachi and or the last two verses of the Old Testament gives a strict warning regarding the return of Elijah the Prophet. Not a reincarnation. It is my humble opinion that the concept of reincarnation is a deliberate attempt by the evil one to mislead the children of men into believing in something that is false. It serves his purposes well.

 

[Shermana]

Mathew 17:12 states that it was Elias not Elijah who had already come. The last chapter of Malachi and or the last two verses of the Old Testament gives a strict warning regarding the return of Elijah the Prophet. Not a reincarnation. It is my humble opinion that the concept of reincarnation is a deliberate attempt by the evil one to mislead the children of men into believing in something that is false. It serves his purposes well.

When did they start teaching people that Elias was not the Greek equivalent of Elijah?

Got a link for this concept that Elias is not the Greek form of Elijah?

Apparently this "Moses" character Jesus refers to must be different than that "Moshe" fellow in the Old Testament too.

It is my humble opinion that teaching people reincarnation doesn't exist is one of the Evil one's greatest tricks to get people into a twisted concept of the afterlife and leave them without any explanation on why innocent children are chosen by Heaven to be killed in horrible ways.

 

[Muffled]

Mathew 17:12 says that it was Elias not Elijah had already come.

It is Elijah in my translation ASB. Elias is Greek for Elijah which means the translators did not choose to use the Hebraic form of the name.

 

[Muffled]

Mathew 17:12 states that it was Elias not Elijah who had already come. The last chapter of Malachi and or the last two verses of the Old Testament gives a strict warning regarding the return of Elijah the Prophet. Not a reincarnation. It is my humble opinion that the concept of reincarnation is a deliberate attempt by the evil one to mislead the children of men into believing in something that is false. It serves his purposes well.

You may state your opinion but I believe that I speak the word of God.

I don't believe it does. I believe there is no advantage to being born again. I believe the devil would be very happy to have God act unmercifully. Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.