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Scientific evidence / arguments for God

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Warren Clark

Informer
It's nonsensical to ask for empirical evidence for the gods, because the concept of gods rests on a foundation that is not scientific. I can point to the universe as evidence for my gods, but in order for someone to accept that as evidence, they have to first accept a certain definition of the gods. That definition is beyond proof. You either believe it or you don't. Science cannot help us with these things.

Let's just get right down to it. I am tired of being drawn between accepting facts and fighting the natural desire humanity seems to have to believe in God. I personally miss my days as a believer, and despite most believers thinking most atheists will never change their minds, I am more than happy to. In fact, I used to be a believer in spirituality and such until I was defeated past the point of no return

So, enough of the damn games. Right here, provide your evidence of God that cannot be refuted and, atheists, refute what can be refuted. Let's just end this nonsense.


We all have our own definition and we all are convicted to strongly to change them...
I am not speaking for myself, I don't believe in gods existing anymore than I believe that fairies had ever existed.


You cannot tell someone that their imaginary friend isn't real, because to them, he is.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you not actually convinced, then, of anything?
There are many things I'm convinced of, but I can't prove them. I cannot prove I'm not in some Matrix-type world, for example (but perhaps I can rely on the work of Descartes, who at least offered a proof that even were this so, I can be certain that there is an "I" that exists, and go from there). However, I also have so little belief (i.e., none) that I am in some Matrix-type world that I don't care if can't prove it.

However, it is for this reason that even before "falsifiability" and Popper that "proof" was restricted to mathematics. The hope is that our models, if they are wrong, are at least produced by a method which can ensure that they can be demonstrated to be wrong, or can be improved, or are correct. But even granting this (and, for the most part, I do), it's often quite hard to know which of the three applies to a particular theory. Take gravity: is the theory of gravity in the standard cosmological model "correct", or does it (as many physicists argue) require "tweaking" in some sense, or (as some physicists argue) is it just plain wrong (which means throwing out the GTR, spacetime curvature, etc.)? And the history of science has shown us that we have often believed that only a little tweaking was necessary when in fact our entire understanding of reality was fundamentally inconsistent with our experimental data (hence the classicality of "classical" physics, vs modern physics).

Before the STR, the GTR, and quantum mechanics, physicists thought we pretty much had physics down. They would have argued that this definition of proof:
Proof can sensibly be shorthand for "Demonstrate to some stupendously high level of confidence," though

was satisfied. They were wrong. When the scientific "version" of mathematics (i.e., when mathematicians leave their "closed discourse" space and talk about the development of methods and models which are either directly or potentially incorporated into scientific practice, such as neural network algorithms or set theory), similar results can occur. They did, in fact, when when Russell and Whitehead's PM, the closest yet to the realization of what Hilbert and others had dreamed of as an ultimate (perhaps the ultimate) goal in mathematics, came crashing down thanks to Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

I don't tend to agree with most critiques, from the more reasonable (e.g., Kuhn), to the bizarre (e.g., Feyerabend) of the philosophy of science (another term, more or less, for that nebulous "scientific method" that somehow every high school student knows but no scientist does, or at least does not practice). If I didn't, I wouldn't be in research. The question is what it means that we have actually been shown this definition
Proof can sensibly be shorthand for "Demonstrate to some stupendously high level of confidence," though
of proof has failed us, in that (most famously) an entire branch of science (the science, for many at the time and now) believed they had demonstrated their theories of physical reality were nearly complete or were complete to a "stupendously high level of confidence" (so high that there wasn't much point in pursuing a career, as Philipp von Jolly informed Max Planck, who thankfully did not follow this advice), and were wrong. For me, contra Kuhn, it doesn't mean that we can expect standard models to be constantly wholly overthrown, or that theories we think are demonstrated "to some stupendously high level of confidence" are probably not. They probably are correct, or at least mostly correct.
 
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Momus

God of point and laugh :3
we cannot prove anything (as legion has said) because we cannot be another person or being with thier own perspective. to me the sky is blue to you it may be blue but in my mind yellow (meaning that blue in my world is yellow in your world but still called blue) so to a religious person god may be all around them and always has prove of it but to a none religious person it is not. therefor you cannot prove anything because you do not have another persons conscious and vision of our world (if it is even that at all!)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
we cannot prove anything (as legion has said) because we cannot be another person or being with thier own perspective. to me the sky is blue to you it may be blue but in my mind yellow (meaning that blue in my world is yellow in your world but still called blue) so to a religious person god may be all around them and always has prove of it but to a none religious person it is not. therefor you cannot prove anything because you do not have another persons conscious and vision of our world (if it is even that at all!)
There is all the difference in the world between "we cannot prove anything" and "we cannot know anything or evaluate how probable something is". If I see what appears to be a brick wall in front of me, I can't "prove" it's there. But I'm not going to run at as fast as I can head first, because I'm pretty sure it is there. And if you equate a lack of proof with an inability to evaluate probability or likelihood, then you have no basis for doing things like eating, drinking, moving, etc.
 
Jer:25:26:
And all the kings of the north,
far and near,
one with another,
and all the kingdoms of the world,
which are upon the face of the earth:

and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.

Re:6:8:
And I looked, and behold a pale horse:
and his name that sat on him was Death,
and Hell followed with him.
And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth,
to kill with sword,
and with hunger,
and with death,
and with the beasts of the earth.

The inhabitable part of the earth is the land area, 1/4 the total area.

Re:8:13:
And I beheld,
and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven,
saying with a loud voice,
Woe,
woe,
woe,
to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels,
which are yet to sound!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
over the fourth part of the earth,
The inhabitable part of the earth is the land area, 1/4 the total area.
However, the line doesn't read "fourth part of the earth" but τὸ τέταρτον τῆς γῆς. And as γῆ usually means "land" or "actual earth" (not the planet), why assume it is used to mean the actual globe (Earth)?
 
Hi
I was actually trying not to assume things and rather go with what the verses promote and that is that the world is the area being defined. The 4th seal is a prophecy or two events, hell is the 5 months of the 5th trump (pain and torment but no death) and death is the 6th trump (1/3 of mankind will die). If the whole world is judged then the whole world is under the tribulation that they are judged on.
Do these verses suggest the whole planet or just a portion of the land areas?

Re:11:15:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

M't:25:31:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory,
and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
M't:25:32:
And before him shall be gathered all nations:
and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Zec:13:8:
And it shall come to pass,
that in all the land,
saith the LORD,
two parts therein shall be cut off and die;
but the third shall be left therein.

Jer:25:31:
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword,
saith the LORD.
Jer:25:32:
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
Behold,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer:25:33:
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
neither gathered,
nor buried;
they shall be dung upon the ground.

γῆ
Transliteration

gē

Pronunciation

gā'


Part of Speech

feminine noun


Root Word (Etymology)

Contracted from a root word
TDNT Reference




Outline of Biblical Usage
1) arable land
2) the ground, the earth as a standing place
3) the main land as opposed to the sea or water
4) the earth as a whole
a) the earth as opposed to the heavens
b) the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
5) a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region


Proverb:8:31:

Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;

and my delights were with the sons of men.



Later
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Let's just get right down to it. I am tired of being drawn between accepting facts and fighting the natural desire humanity seems to have to believe in God. I personally miss my days as a believer, and despite most believers thinking most atheists will never change their minds, I am more than happy to. In fact, I used to be a believer in spirituality and such until I was defeated past the point of no return

So, enough of the damn games. Right here, provide your evidence of God that cannot be refuted and, atheists, refute what can be refuted. Let's just end this nonsense.

I can't prove that gods exist to you, nor can I even claim to have truly proven their existence to myself. However I feel a more pertinent question is "Do you want or need gods?".

I would argue that whether or not gods exist in any manner tangible enough to be observed scientifically is largely irrelevant. What matters is their impact on your life for better or for worse.

To try and illustrate my point, Bilbo Baggins may not exist, but he has had a far greater impact on my life than Nicaraguan agriculture has. Likewise a farmer in Nicaragua may well place far more importance in his own stories than in the state of student finance in England. Literal existence isn't necessarily a good measure of value or importance on a personal level.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I can't prove that gods exist to you, nor can I even claim to have truly proven their existence to myself. However I feel a more pertinent question is "Do you want or need gods?".

I would argue that whether or not gods exist in any manner tangible enough to be observed scientifically is largely irrelevant. What matters is their impact on your life for better or for worse.

To try and illustrate my point, Bilbo Baggins may not exist, but he has had a far greater impact on my life than Nicaraguan agriculture has. Likewise a farmer in Nicaragua may well place far more importance in his own stories than in the state of student finance in England. Literal existence isn't necessarily a good measure of value or importance on a personal level.

That's a very good point, but the problem is that the existence or nonexistence of God would have a profound effect on it's influence on the daily lives and actions of many of those who believe in such a God. To use your example of Bilbo Baggins, you are correct that the concept of Bilbo Baggins probably does have an effect on your life regardless of it's basis in reality, but can the same thing truly be said of the concept of God? Do you honestly not think that there are countless people out there whose beliefs wouldn't change entirely if God were proven to exist or not? People predicate their entire lifestyles, personal moralities and outlook entirely on the assumption that some form of a God exists, and if the existence of such a God were to be utterly refuted, it would doubtless shake the foundations on which all of those things are based.

So, when it comes to God, I think the question of whether or not God exists in reality is extremely important. As long as people continue basing their lives defined by the existence of some form of God, I feel it's extremely important that we continually question whether or not reality bears the concept out. It's a belief that people live and die for, and not just because the belief has affected their lives like Bilbo Baggins has affected yours - but because they truly and honestly believe that God actually exists.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
That's a very good point, but the problem is that the existence or nonexistence of God would have a profound effect on it's influence on the daily lives and actions of many of those who believe in such a God. To use your example of Bilbo Baggins, you are correct that the concept of Bilbo Baggins probably does have an effect on your life regardless of it's basis in reality, but can the same thing truly be said of the concept of God? Do you honestly not think that there are countless people out there whose beliefs wouldn't change entirely if God were proven to exist or not? People predicate their entire lifestyles, personal moralities and outlook entirely on the assumption that some form of a God exists, and if the existence of such a God were to be utterly refuted, it would doubtless shake the foundations on which all of those things are based.

So, when it comes to God, I think the question of whether or not God exists in reality is extremely important. As long as people continue basing their lives defined by the existence of some form of God, I feel it's extremely important that we continually question whether or not reality bears the concept out. It's a belief that people live and die for, and not just because the belief has affected their lives like Bilbo Baggins has affected yours - but because they truly and honestly believe that God actually exists.

You make a very valid point. I honestly have no idea what would happen if god/s were 100% proven to exist/not exist, though I suspect the result would be both incredible and horrifying. I imagine it would be wonderful for some people and dreadful for others as such a revelation (much like the absolute conviction you described) is a very double edged sword.
For the moment I would say I understand your point, but would personally prefer to see god/s treated more like the characters of a novel than either a master to be obeyed or a theory to be examined. Having said that though it is pretty late and I'm slightly groggy. I'll think more on what you've said :)
 
What kind of proof would you expect to find when we are in a period where belieff is to be gained by the Scripture alone?

Joh:20:29:
Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas,
because thou hast seen me,
thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen,
and yet have believed.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You make a very valid point. I honestly have no idea what would happen if god/s were 100% proven to exist/not exist, though I suspect the result would be both incredible and horrifying. I imagine it would be wonderful for some people and dreadful for others as such a revelation (much like the absolute conviction you described) is a very double edged sword.
For the moment I would say I understand your point, but would personally prefer to see god/s treated more like the characters of a novel than either a master to be obeyed or a theory to be examined. Having said that though it is pretty late and I'm slightly groggy. I'll think more on what you've said :)

I agree with you. I think part of the attraction, at least subconsciously, of believing in a God concept for some people is that you feel it's something that cannot (easily) be disproven. In that sense, perhaps there is a connection with your Bilbo Baggins analogy in that the truth value of God is irrelevant to the concept's impact, but only in so far as God cannot be demonstrated not to exist. I mean, saying "you cannot disprove this therefore I will continue to believe it" is really no different to saying "whether or not this thing exists I will continue to believe it does because it suits me".

Then again, I'm probably grossly generalizing.

What kind of proof would you expect to find when we are in a period where belieff is to be gained by the Scripture alone?
Well, if that's the case: zero.

Scripture is not sufficient evidence of anything. Or, at least, it's not sufficient evidence that the claims it makes are true.
 
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That's somewhat true, there does come a point where the OT and NT and the end time prophecies fit so well that it has to be admitted that it is more likely the work of a single writer who knew how Revelation would end before Genesis 1 was 'conceived'. The 4th seal in Re:6 mentions 1/4 of the earth will undergo tribulation and Jer:25 gives a list of nation that is said to cover the whole earth. 1/4 of the earth would cover all nations as 3/4 of the earth is water. No proof but it should make you scratch your chin a bit. Daniel was writing one part of his book and he admitted he had no idea what he was writing about. 4o writers over 1,000's of years yet it tell a flawless story if you take Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 as a summary and everything in between as being part of one bruise or the other. We aren't that smart that 40 men locked up in a room couldn't produce anything at all like this book. Not proof hut it makes the percent rise above 0 that it has a single author.
For instance is God the witness in Ge:1 and the Holy Spirit the witness in Ge:2 and their Son Christ is the witness in Proverbs 8 starting with this verse and going to the end of the chapter?

Proverb:8:22:
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
Proverb:8:23:
I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning,
or ever the earth was.
Proverb:8:24:
When there were no depths,
I was brought forth;
when there were no fountains abounding with water.

There is a list that should be explored that leads to that same conclusion but nothing you can hold in your hand. Old ear craetion fits better than science has it today. The flood was 22fy of rain on the land areas and the amount of water needed would drop the ocean levels by 5 ft, the high hill and mountains got that rain as freezing rain or snow and that is why it took a full year for things to go back to 'normal'. The exodus, the stopping the sun in the sky all of that has explanations that \just enter the supernatural and falls well short of need 100M cubic miles miles of water to get 20 ft of water on a mountain top, like I said there is a list of sorts.

God even tells us what to do if the book is false, how thoughtful eh. lol

1Co:15:32:
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus,
what advantageth it me,
if the dead rise not?
let us eat and drink;
for to morrow we die.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
That's somewhat true, there does come a point where the OT and NT and the end time prophecies fit so well that it has to be admitted that it is more likely the work of a single writer who knew how Revelation would end before Genesis 1 was 'conceived'. The 4th seal in Re:6 mentions 1/4 of the earth will undergo tribulation and Jer:25 gives a list of nation that is said to cover the whole earth.
None of those seems remotely specific.

1/4 of the earth would cover all nations as 3/4 of the earth is water. No proof but it should make you scratch your chin a bit.
Not really. The amount of water covering the surface earth has remained at a relatively constant two thirds for the last several thousand years, so not only is it a vague assertion, it's also inaccurate.

Daniel was writing one part of his book and he admitted he had no idea what he was writing about.
Where does he say this? Do we have any known first-hand accounts of Daniel's writing?

4o writers over 1,000's of years yet it tell a flawless story if you take Ge:1-3 and Re:20-22 as a summary and everything in between as being part of one bruise or the other.
That's not really surprising when you consider that the Bible was still collected and edited together about seventy years or so after the deaths of it's supposed writers.

We aren't that smart that 40 men locked up in a room couldn't produce anything at all like this book. Not proof hut it makes the percent rise above 0 that it has a single author.
No, it's just evidence that it was compiled and edited together. Does the consistency of language in the dictionary demonstrate that all the words it contains comes from a single source, or is it more reasonable to assume that it simply reads that way because it was collected and edited by an individual or group who agreed on the editing process. It seems a far more reasonable explanation than the Bible being divinely inspired.

There is a list that should be explored that leads to that same conclusion but nothing you can hold in your hand. Old ear craetion fits better than science has it today. The flood was 22fy of rain on the land areas and the amount of water needed would drop the ocean levels by 5 ft, the high hill and mountains got that rain as freezing rain or snow and that is why it took a full year for things to go back to 'normal'. The exodus, the stopping the sun in the sky all of that has explanations that \just enter the supernatural and falls well short of need 100M cubic miles miles of water to get 20 ft of water on a mountain top, like I said there is a list of sorts.
And yet there is absolutely zero evidence of any kind of global flood event.
 
Not really. The amount of water covering the surface earth has remained at a relatively constant two thirds for the last several thousand years, so not only is it a vague assertion, it's also inaccurate.
Surface Area of the Earth

Total surface area of earth: 510,072,000 sq km

  • Total water surface area: 70.8% (361,132,000 sq km)
  • Total land surface area: 29.2% (148,940,000 sq km)


Where does he say this? Do we have any known first-hand accounts of Daniel's writing?
Da:7:28:

Hitherto is the end of the matter.

As for me Daniel,

my cogitations much troubled me,

and my countenance changed in me:

but I kept the matter in my heart.


Da:8:26:
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true:
wherefore shut thou up the vision;
for it shall be for many days.
Da:8:27:
And I Daniel fainted,
and was sick certain days;
afterward I rose up,
and did the king's business;
and I was astonished at the vision,
but none understood it.

That's not really surprising when you consider that the Bible was still collected and edited together about seventy years or so after the deaths of it's supposed writers.
So how many years after 70AD was the prophecy about 70AD in Luke:21:24 written? Not getting the warning in time would have cost how many Christians their lives?
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Surface Area of the Earth

Total surface area of earth: 510,072,000 sq km

  • Total water surface area: 70.8% (361,132,000 sq km)
  • Total land surface area: 29.2% (148,940,000 sq km)
You kind of just proved my point.

Da:7:28:

Hitherto is the end of the matter.

As for me Daniel,

my cogitations much troubled me,

and my countenance changed in me:

but I kept the matter in my heart.


Da:8:26:
And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true:
wherefore shut thou up the vision;
for it shall be for many days.
Da:8:27:
And I Daniel fainted,
and was sick certain days;
afterward I rose up,
and did the king's business;
and I was astonished at the vision,
but none understood it.
Are these first hand accounts?

So how many years after 70AD was the prophecy about 70AD in Luke:21:24 written? Not getting the warning in time would have cost how many Christians their lives?
Evidence that these events occurred, please.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Planck time is a unit of measurement. This particular unit of measurement can be used for many things, but is especially famous in that it relates to where our understanding of the structure, nature, physics, etc., of the universe all break down. In these first "moments" (the initial 10^-43 "second" of the universe), there is no longer a singularity, but a universe which has none of the properties our universe does. Spacetime, which is the "fabric" in which all physical reality exists, was not a property of these first moments of our universe.


The fact of the matter is, that according to the standard big bang model, literally nothing existed from a physical standpoint before the singularity. That is about as far as you can go back with science. Science stops at the singularity. Since you can no longer use scientific reasoning, what can you use? You have to use metaphysics, and that is what naturalists are afraid to use, because it will become clear that they are stepping into a realm of reality that makes them uncomfortable, and that is the supernatural realm.


The point, however, is that the properties of matter, the laws of physics, and the way we understand spacetime (or "time" or "space" as we experience them), as well as things like what is or isn't possible, don't exist either in the standard model or any other model of physics in the earliest moments of the universe. And they certainly don't describe the properties of what we call the singularity.

You are digging the hole much deeper, you've just admitted that the laws of physics and all spacetime didn't exist at some point, so how did it go from not existing, to now existing?? It had to come from somewhere, and the origin of all these things could not itself be natural, because nature is the exact thing that you just admitted to not existing. So the hole has just gotten deeper for you.

You state that God exists (or did exist) in such a way that s/he (it?) has a property capable enabling God to make a choice to act in a particular way. How do you know that a property of the singularity wasn't that it could exist without space or time but was in some atemporal reality in which one of its properties was that it would alter in a particular way and the result would be the "big bang"?

Lets just postulate anything, shall we lol. Lets say a rock is lying on the the ground, and it has been lying there for eternity. Lets say it never moved, never ever moved. Will it ever move?? No, it won't. It can only move if there are some kind of external entity that exists beyond it that would cause it to move (a gust of wind, a person to kick it, etc). If these external factors are not present, the rock will never move. It won't move on its own accord, but rather, with the help of some transcendent entity. So in regards to the singularity, there was no atemporal reality (a non-supernatural reality), that would alter it in a particular way. And even if there was, if that reality did not have a mind, the question would still be "how come it didn't alter it yesterday, or tomorrow, why only 13.7 billion years ago" So the problem is still not solved.

Why? After the universe was already here, nothing which "makes sense" in terms of how you experience reality existed. Nothing of what you understand about cause existed then either (for you or me to "cause" something we must interact with it in some local spatio-temporal sense, such that my action takes place before the "effect" of my action, and that what I do is located spatially near it, e.g, I can't kick a soccerball from three miles away).

Well, you are talking about after the universe was already here. My point was before the universe became our "universe". It makes absolutely no since for a singularity to exist from past eternity and then to all of a sudden expand for no apparent reason without there be any precausal conditions. Like the rock example I gave, if the rock was lying on the ground for all eternity, and then it all of a sudden exploded into tiny pieces of gravel......why? These are things that don't happen in reality. All effects have causes and things just dont happen "just because".

Which are?

In order for life to begin you have to have amino acids, you have to get the right number of the right kind of amino acids to link up to create a protein molecule. Then you have to get those protein molecules and place them in the right sequence. So not only do you have the problem of getting all of the components together from non-living materials, you also have the problem of getting all of the ingredients together and in the right way. Second, all of these things couldn't happen if the physical laws were not fine tuned, such as the value of the constants. The strong nuclear constant, weak nuclear constant, gravitational force constant, electromagnetic constant, if each of these things were to strong or to weak, life would not be permissible on this universe, and these are just a few things among 20 that have to be fine tuned. So the naturalist is fighting an uphill battle when it comes to probabilities.

Not at all. You are making claims about what is and isn't possible, or what does and does not make sense, in terms of reality, probabilty, and the nature of the universe. Yet you are doing so in ways that indicate you do not understand most of these (that is, probability, physics, and cosmology). How can you make a claim founded upon things which you do not understand?

Really? Are you a biologists? Are you a physicists? Are you a cosmologist? Are you a mathematician? I mean, do you have a degree in either of these fields? If not then you are clearly the pot calling the kettle black. But for fun, lets break down those three things. Probability....i gave you an accurate analogy on what it would be like for the universe to just happen to be fine tuned for human life....I will check again but I don't think you even addressed this issue, all you said was "google permutations", which was a cop out, but nonetheless, it was an accurate analogy. Second, with regard to physics, no I do not know much about physics, but the argument that I'm raising doesn't need to get in depths of physics, all I need to do is use contemporary cosmology to establish the fact that the universe began to exist. That is it. What happened after it began to exist is irrelevant, the point is, it didn't exist at some point in the finite past, but it exist now, and only a supernatural explanation is plausible. So not to much physics is needed here, and this goes along with cosmology. The big bang model is the best naturalistic explanation that we currently have in science regarding the origin of the universe. To argue against this is to argue against science. So far from me not understanding the issues. I am speaking on what I do know.

It isn't "observed". What we observe are certain properties and laws which we can run in reverse, but at a certain point, even after the "big bang", these laws and properties used to create the theory do not hold. The "big bang theory" doesn't remain as the standard model because it is widely accepted within the physics community, but because none of the alternate proposals have gained consensus, and so even though we know the standard model isn't complete, or is otherwise flawed, it's all we have at the moment.

Well, regardless, the universe began to exist. Not to mention the fact that all of those alternate models, the question of origins applies to them as well. So instead of making the problem disappear, you are just pushing the question of origins back steps further. So nothing is solved by postulating pre-big bang models, plus mostly all of them are subject to the Borde-Guth-Vilenkin theorem, and they are also subject to the problem of infinity. So once again, an uphill battle for the naturalist.

In the standard model, after the universe "began to exist", we still didn't have time or space or physical laws or any properties of the universe we are familiar with.

I really don't understand why you keep saying we didn't have space or time after the universe began to exist. The singularity expanded, with an expansion comes space, and with an expansion also comes time, because there is duration between the expansion and the stationary state that it was in. So what are you talking about here?

Apart from the above, I've already stated your description of probability is in inaccurate.

Permutations again?

It is (in part) literally rocket science, in that it is the use of astronomy and astronomical devices (such as rockets) which provide is with an understanding about the universe. Additionally, applying an reduced Aristotelian model of causality along with a disregarded understanding of time, space, and physics, hardly makes your assertion justified.

:confused:

You are aware it is possible for both to be true? And in fact the standard model, and every single other model, says that both are true?

No, im not


Perhaps you can quote one who can tell us what the state of the universe was during the first 10^-43 second interval of what we would inaptly term "time"?

10^-43 <-------this is still considered "time".


Cells have "organs" and mechanisms to do break down "food". So do plants. Do they have urges?

But they are part of the same process which is in question.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fact of the matter is, that according to the standard big bang model, literally nothing existed from a physical standpoint before the singularity.
"The term “Big Bang”, however, is often used (even in a scientific context) in a broader sense, as synonymous with the birth and origin of the Universe as a whole. In other words, this term is used also to indicate the single event from which everything (including space and time themselves) directly originated, emerging from an initial singular state, i.e., a state characterized by infinitely high values of energy, density and temperature.
This second interpretation is certainly suggestive, and even scientifically motivated within the standard cosmological model. Nonetheless, it has been challenged by recent developments in theoretical physics that took place at the end of the twentieth century." from The Universe Before the Big Bang: Cosmology and String Theory (Astronomer's Universe; Springer, 2008).

I hate to appeal to a single authority here (even one published in a scientific monograph series published by the single most important academic press in the sciences in the entire world), but I also don't want to unnecessarily complicate things for you.


That is about as far as you can go back with science. Science stops at the singularity.
It doesn't. First, there is work about what was "before" the big bang, and second, physics break down after the big bang. Either way, your conception of "time" doesn't appear until even after the big bang. Same with space.

Since you can no longer use scientific reasoning, what can you use? You have to use metaphysics, and that is what naturalists are afraid to use, because it will become clear that they are stepping into a realm of reality that makes them uncomfortable, and that is the supernatural realm.

Clearly, we aren't reading much of the same metaphysical literature.

You are digging the hole much deeper, you've just admitted that the laws of physics and all spacetime didn't exist at some point, so how did it go from not existing, to now existing??

Current physics suggests that your understanding of time, space, and existence is flawed.

It had to come from somewhere
But God didn't? And if God need not come from somewhere, why need the universe?

So the hole has just gotten deeper for you.

Not really. If God exists, wonderful. I'm just interested in knowing things, not dogma.


Will it ever move?? No, it won't.
So whose to say that the "singularity" behaves like the rock? Or that it isn't "transcendent" (whatever that entails)?

with the help of some transcendent entity.
Ok. The singularity was a transcendent entity. Metaphysical problem solved.

"how come it didn't alter it yesterday, or tomorrow, why only 13.7 billion years ago"
Because all our yesterdays have lighted fools/The way to dusty death.

So the problem is still not solved.
I guess it's turtles, all the way down.

It makes absolutely no since for a singularity to exist from past eternity and then to all of a sudden expand for no apparent reason without there be any precausal conditions.

There are nolocal correlations instantaneously and which are space-like seperated (and can be so to an arbitrary degree). What's the "precausal condition" for these?

These are things that don't happen in reality. All effects have causes and things just dont happen "just because".

Ergo, you have no free will.

Second, all of these things couldn't happen if the physical laws were not fine tuned
So what you are saying is that were it not for the fact that the universe is the way it is, we wouldn't be here. But we are here, which means it is that way. And if it weren't, we wouldn't be.

if each of these things were to strong or to weak, life would not be permissible on this universe

And you know this because...?

Really? Are you a biologists? Are you a physicists? Are you a cosmologist? Are you a mathematician?
Yes, yes, no, and yes. My field involves biology, physics, and mathematics. Cosmology (like many things) I research because I am interested.

If not then you are clearly the pot calling the kettle black.
Not really. Because the issue isn't what I have degrees in, but what I study and the extent to which I am familiar with particular topics. Likewise for you.

So once again, an uphill battle for the naturalist.

But even were you correct, it would not be a battle for the pantheist. Or the Wiccan. Or the Muslim. Or any number of others whose understanding of creation and existence differs from yours yet is not naturalism.

I really don't understand why you keep saying we didn't have space or time after the universe began to exist.

There are a lot of really, really, awful books out there on cosmology for the general audience. However, as far as simpflication without distortion goes, you might try Brian Greene.

So what are you talking about here?
The fact that spacetime requires a particular structure and that this didn't exist even after the big bang.


Permutations again?
Sure. Or no. But if you want to say how likely something is, you need to know the probability space.
 
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bhajanradio1

Bhajan Radio
Not everything can be proved as science. There are so many mysteries around us, which we, even in this era also, are not able to unfold it. Then how can we prove god. It's beyond our capacity
 
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