No, there isn't. Not even from a Christian perspective.
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Forgiveness?
- Thread starter Ken Brown
- Start date
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
God had been forgiving mankind for thousands of years before Jesus arrived. So a death is not needed for Gods forgiveness to be received.
But one thing that forgiveness in itself cannot give a person, is life. God can forgive sins, but that does not mean that the person will live forever...they will still grow old and die. Romans 12:5 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned
For a person to continue living, more then mere forgiveness must take place.
Justification needs to happen. And that is what Jesus death accomplished. It was a justification of divine law. 'Life for Life'. God provided this justification so that he could offer mankind everlasting life as the scriptures state:
Luke 10:25 Now, look! a certain man versed in the Law rose up, to test him out, and said: “Teacher, by doing what shall I inherit everlasting life?”
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ
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Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, thanks for the thought provoking response. It does beg a question to be asked. Why would the shedding of someone's innocent blood bring about justification, have you not read this:
Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
G-d says point blank that He will not justify the wicked through the slaying of the innocent and righteous. Why would you believe something that is against the Scriptures? KB
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the wicked are not justified by Christs blood unless they repent and turn to God in faith.
You know, we are all wicked until we turn back to God. Then we are viewed by him as righteous.
So those words apply to people who refuse to repent over their sins and refuse to turn to God. Those people will never be justified by Christs blood. God only uses the blood to justify the righteous.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, I think I understand what you are saying. What exactly do you feel happens as a result of shedding his innocent blood. How does justification work, and what does shedding innocent blood have to do with being justified? Thanks, KB.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
Because God is a perfect and just God and so are his laws.In order for a law to be perfect it must uphold justice and at the same time God is perfect love.Man is not able to keep the law which is perfect and therefore falls short.The laws must be kept for it to be perfect justice so therefor Jesus not only sacrificed but he fullfiulled the laws and still was condemned in our place. Love is not selfish nor does it seeks its own but only gives.Love is sacrifice.Without sacrifice there is no love.Jesus justified the law and love.
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Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Walkntune, thanks for the explanation. Doesn't your NT say that he died "according to the Scriptures?" Well, the Scriptures state that justifying the wicked and condemning the righteous, both alike are abominations:
Pro 17:15
(15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Yet you want me to believe that according to the Scriptures, G-d's justice required justifying the wicked by condemning the just. You know, it just does not make any sense? KB
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
under divine law, if a person lost something of value, they had to replace it for the same value. The mosaic law stated 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth and life for life' If an isrealite took a life, that person had to pay with their own life. If a person stole something valued $50, they had to pay back $50.
As it is with mankind, when we sin, we must pay with our life. That is what God told Adam in Eden:
Genesis 2:15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.
Why did the man have to die for eating the fruit? Because eating resulted in 'disobedience' to Gods stated laws. So really, it is disobedience to Gods divine laws which cause death. That is what James stated at James 1:14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.
So anyone who sins, pays for their sin with their life. We all sin, thats why we all die.
God chose to rectify this problem by making an atonement or 'justification' on our behalf. Because sin means we loose out on perfect life, the only thing of equal value that could have been offered was a perfect human life. But none of us could have offered it because none of mankind are perfect.
God sent his own son from heaven to earth to live as a perfect human and offer his life in exchange for ours. Thats how the justifcation has taken place. The perfect life lost by us has been repaid by Christ.
What it means for us is that very soon, death will not be a consequence of sin. Death will be removed so that mankind can live. There are many scriptures that state this as a fact:
Romans 5:18 So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one [person] many will be constituted righteous
Revelation 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
He didn't Justify the wicked.He justified the law.Only those who recieve righteousness by faith our justified through Christ. The wicked are still accountable to the law and will be judged accordingly.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, a nice detailed post, but one thing you should know about me is that I really like getting the details correct. Concerning the paying $50 for something that was stolen worth $50 dollars....that is incorrect. If an ox is stolen and it dies or is sold, then 5 oxen are required to repay, it it is a lamb, then 4 lambs are required. If either the ox or sheep is found in the thief's hand, then the thief restores double. The same with money or other belongings, it is restored double. These details are important and significant in understanding how G-d thinks.
Now, concerning what your NT says about how he died "according to the scriptures," well, according to the Scriptures the soul that sins should die, and not someone in their stead:
Eze 18:20
(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Do you see that Pegg? The sinner is to die, not the innocent, and also righteousness or justification should only be upon the one that is just, not the wicked as most profess. And if you look at the Scriptures concerning the transferring of righteousness, it is very clear that it should not be done:
Eze 14:20
(20) Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord G-D, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
Pegg, you may need to rethink how you view the substituting of righteousness, because "according to the Scriptures," it is not allowed. KB
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
hi Ken,
Im not quite sure which part of the mosaic law you are refering to, but the principle of 'equivalence' is found in Deuteronomy where the Law stated: Soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deuteronomy 19:21)
I absolutely agree 100% that each person will render an account to God for their own individual actions. We will be judged according to our own sins as the NT states:
Each of us will render an account for himself to God.ROMANS 14:12.
However, if there is no justification as you say, then mankind can never be saved from the plight we are in.....and that is not what the scriptures teach. God has promised that salvation will come through the Messiah. The jews believed in a the coming of a Messiah for thousands of years. The purpose (and the hope) was that he would deliver them from sin and death
Isaiah 25:7 And in this mountain he will certainly swallow up the face of the envelopment that is enveloping over all the peoples, and the woven work that is interwoven upon all the nations. 8 He will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces. And the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for Jehovah himself has spoken [it].
Ask yourself, how could death be removed from mankind while sin existed?
It couldnt.
The only solution is to remove sin from mankind....and through the Messiah, mankind could live long enough to work their way out of sin because God would accept the value of the Messiahs blood as a covering for that of mankind, thus allowing mankind to live indefinitely.
And we have an example of how this is possible in the sacrifices offered at the temple by the high priest. Every year he offered the blood of the lamb on the alter in the 'most holy' compartment of the tabernacle. That blood was given on behalf of the Isrealites for the forgiveness of their sins. God was showing what was needed.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, I was referring to this:
Exo 22:1-9
(1) If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
(2) If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
(3) If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
(4) If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ***, or sheep; he shall restore double.
(5) If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
(6) If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
(7) If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
(8) If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
(9) For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ***, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Now Pegg, concerning the removal of sin and the justification you find in shedding innocent blood, just exactly what do you consider the biblical definition of "righteousness" to be? I will really be interested in seeing how you answer this. KB
Exo 22:1-9
(1) If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
(2) If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
(3) If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
(4) If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ***, or sheep; he shall restore double.
(5) If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
(6) If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
(7) If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
(8) If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
(9) For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ***, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Now Pegg, concerning the removal of sin and the justification you find in shedding innocent blood, just exactly what do you consider the biblical definition of "righteousness" to be? I will really be interested in seeing how you answer this. KB
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
these all refer to possessions, but the laws with regard to a persons own self stipulate 'like for like' as i showed in my previous post. If you take a life, you must give a life. If you take an eye, you must give an eye and so on.
Greek scholar Kenneth S. Wuest says: God is the objective standard which determines the content of meaning of dikaios [righteous], and at the same time keeps that content of meaning constant and unchanging, since He is the unchanging One.
Righteousness in the biblical sense is a condition of rightness the standard of which is God, which is estimated according to the divine standard, which shows itself in behavior conformable to God, and has to do above all things with its relation to God, ...Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, 1946, p. 37.
So righteousness is whatever Gods standards are. That is what is righteous.
Unfortunately, every single one of us fall short of Gods righteousness...none of us can live up to all which is righteous from Gods viewpoint as the mosaic law showed.
The mosaic law sets out Gods standards of righteousness. But the fact is that no Israelite could live by it unerringly. The law was perfect but the people were not...and they failed time and again to keep it perfectly thus showing that, no matter how hard they tried, they were not righteous at all.
So God gave us a handicap. He gave mankind a new requirement...and adherence to that requirement would be counted to them as 'righteous.
Christ is Gods provision for mankind to live in righteousness. Faith in Christ is the standard by which God is judging a person... he is not judging them by a law that they cannot keep fully...he is offering them an easier way to show themselves righteous through faith. This is why it is only through the acceptance of Gods provision of his Son that anyone can attain to righteousness. (Ro 8:3, 4; Heb 7:18-28)
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, I do appreciate the response. Concerning the "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth," my objection was to your statement of paying $50 for $50, which is incorrect, according to the mosaic law, the $50 would have to be repaid with a $100 payment.
Now, Kenneth Wuest states that biblical righteousness is "estimated according to the divine standard." The question that needs to be asked, "What is the divine standard?" Scriptures tell us very plainly:
Psa 119:172
(172) My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Deu 6:25
(25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our G-d, as he hath commanded us.
The divine standard is ALL of G-d's commandments. G-d's commands are righteousness, plain and simple, and it appears that you do agree with this:
Now Pegg, how does killing an innocent man or believing that an innocent man died in your stead, how does this accomplish righteousness (the doing of the law)? Even in your NT it is written:
Rom 2:13
(13) For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in the sight of G-d, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.
So the "doing of the law" is the righteous standard that G-d will judge by, and I think the following list of Scriptures clearly show that the killing of a righteous, innocent man is unjust (it's the exact opposite of righteousness):
Pro 17:26
(26) Also to punish the righteous is not good, nor to strike princes for equity. (righteousness)
Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
Pro 17:15
(15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Deu 27:25
(25) Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Pegg, how does killing an innocent man or the belief of killing an innocent man establish the reward of righteousness (the doing of the law)? KB
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Lady B, my religion is to seek G-d with a humble heart and contrite spirit, and to keep myself from being corrupted by the world. KB
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
i wont dispute that, there is no example of a dollar value given in the mosaic law...i was using it as an example of what i meant by something of equal value... but you are right, for the loss of livestock or other goods, the values were doubled in compensation.
can i first ask you how the slaughtering of a lamb on the day of atonement, atoned for the sins of the isrealites?
Leviticus 16:15 And he must slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, and he must bring its blood inside the curtain and do with its blood the same as he did with the bulls blood; and he must spatter it toward the cover and before the cover.
16 And he must make atonement for the holy place concerning the uncleannesses of the sons of Israel and concerning their revolts in all their sins
If you can explain how the blood of an animal can grant forgiveness to the sons of Isreal, perhaps we can examine how the blood of Jesus can grant forgiveness to the people of all nations.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Pegg, atonement and forgiveness is quite simple, turn from your sin and you will be forgiven, do what is right, learn to love, and atonement will be made. (2 Ch 7:14, Pro 10:12)
The shedding of blood does not atone for sin (unless it's your own), turning from sin atones for sin, and the purpose for shedding the blood of an innocent animal was to bring about that repentance, that turning from sin. But as it turned out, the people failed to recognize the true purpose of the bloodshed/sacrifice. Why? Because the value or life of an animal does not have the ability to bring about the removal of sin from a sinners life (there is no remorse in the killing of an animal). Now, those who denied the true purpose of sacrifice (to stop the sinner from sinning), used sacrifice substitutionally, as a means to continue IN sin, and G-d spoke out against that practice:
Mic 6:6-8
(6) Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high G-d? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
(7) Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
(8) He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?
Psa 50:7-15
(7) Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I am God, even thy G-d.
(8) I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me.
(9) I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds.
(10) For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
(11) I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.
(12) If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
(13) Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
(14) Offer unto G-d thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
(15) And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Isa 1:10-11, 16-17
(10) Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
(11) To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
(16) Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
(17) Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Do you see that Pegg? Shedding blood and killing animals is not what G-d desires, but rather the turning from evil and learning to do what is right, and this atones for sin.
Now, how does shedding the blood of an innocent man atone for sin and grant forgiveness? KB
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Walkntune, sorry I haven't responded to you here yet. You wrote else where that "Jesus" was condemned in our place. Now, when he was condemned in your place, were you wicked (another way to put it, would he be condemned in your place if you were righteous)? So, IF you were wicked, as to condemn him to die in your stead, is there any justification in it for you? Or is it that your justification has nothing to do with him dying in your stead? Please explain yourself a little better...thanks. KB