Forgiveness?

[Ken Brown]

Ken Brown,
Finally a thinking man!! The Bible provides a very satisfying answer.
First, the Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23.
The Bible also tells us that sins are not charged to anyone if there is no law, so why do Christians die today, when Jesus came to earth to give his life to provide a Ransom for men so that men would not have to die, Rom 5:13, 2Cor 5:14, Heb 2:9, 1:29, 3:16.
Christians today do no die because of their sins, because Jesus died for all our sins, so when we sin our sins are not charged to us, but we are covered by Jesus ransom sacrifice, so in effect they are charged to Jesus, who has already died for the sins, Heb 10:12-18.
Since Jesus died for every man that would take advantage of his ransom sacrifice, by having faith in Jesus and his Father, John 6:28,29. Therefore, if a person is told the requirements of God and do not listen, there is NO sacrifice for him, Heb 10:26,27.
Now, the reason for Jesus coming to earth to give his life for us.
God is righteous in every way, so that He obeys His own rules. God had allowed the Israelites to sacrifice bulls and goats to keep them from dying for their sins. The blood of goats and bulls can never cause the sins of men to be forgiven, Heb 9:9-15, 10:1-4, Acts 13:48,49.
Consider Romans 3:21-26, where Paul explains exactly why God could not just forgive the sins of man, but God could count every man as justified, who puts his faith in the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus.
All men are imperfect, so no imperfect man could provide the ransom for mankind.
Remember the ransom is so that we can receive back what Adam lost for us, perfect life. So Jesus became that perfect man so that he could provide a ransom for us because Jesus remained perfect until death.
So, as the scriptures say God remained righteous even when forgiving sinful men, because of the perfect ransom sacrifice of His son, Rom 3:24-26.

Hi jtartar, aren't you aware that Yeshua died for our sin according to the Scriptures? KB

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Hi Peacemaker, according to the Scriptures, Innocent Blood can never PAY for sin:

Num 35:33
(33) So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

Nor is it according to the Scriptures to punish the Innocent to justify the wicked:

Pro 17:26
(26) Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.

Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Pro 17:15
(15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Deu 25:1
(1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Peacemaker, you need to re-think just exactly what G-d's justice requires. KB

FWIW, God never actually executed him. It was the wicked that did it. From our pov God simply allowed it and used it to bring about a greater good

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi jtartar, aren't you aware that Yeshua died for our sin according to the Scriptures? KB

That's not a very popular opinion, it would seem, at least from the responses I've gotten on RF

 

[Ken Brown]

FWIW, God never actually executed him. It was the wicked that did it. From our pov God simply allowed it and used it to bring about a greater good

Hi Peacemaker, we agree fully that G-d did not put His Son to death, neither did the Son kill Himself, but it was ALL of mankind (all sinners) that placed Him up on the cross/stake, and did slay Him. And there definitely was something good that came out of it. All sinners were put to death. Judgment was made, and everyone died WHEN He died, and that is why Paul no longer looked at anyone from a human point of view-all were dead. Now, if ALL were dead, who paid for their sin? If you believe Yeshua died ACCORDING to the Scriptures, you would have to say--the sinner. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

That's not a very popular opinion, it would seem, at least from the responses I've gotten on RF

Hi Disciple, to be sure, it is a very had thing to come out of the welfare state. KB

 

[Lady B]

Hi Walkntune, those people were slanderously saying that Paul was teaching we should DO evil, so that good would result. They wrongly perceived that Paul, in his teaching on Grace, was saying that if you sin, good will come about. And that is not the message about Grace, but it is very similar. See, Paul's message about Grace was that SINNERS have accomplished the Just requirement of the Law, just by sinning. By sinning, we ALL killed Messiah (John 7:19) and He became OUR Sacrifice through that disobedience. So this is WHY those people were wrongly saying about Paul that he teaches that we should DO evil, so that good may come. Do you see the difference? Do you see how our sin is turned INTO Righteousness (doing what the Law required for sinners-which is sacrifice)? By sinning, we are actually fulfilling righteousness, and this is how our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. But this powerful GIFT that we receive from G-d (though our sin) is the horrific suffering, death, burial, and glorious 3rd day resurrection of the Messiah. And this is how Grace TEACHES us to flee from sin (we can't continue in placing Yeshua up on the Cross/Stake-Heb 6-4-8, 10:26-31). Does it make any sense at all? KB

huh? our sin turned into righteousness?

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could explain why a diety, or a relative of a diety needs to die so that forgiveness of sin could be given to sinners who confess that he did this? Why not just forgive them? KB

It was to fulfill the bruise to the heel in Ge:3:15. That defined a 'bruise' to be equal to death, for a man such as Jesus was when He was a child of Eve's seed it is the grave, a place God can bring people back from. The bruise to the serpent is also death, for a being that has seen the face of God it is a one way trip to the fiery lake. The'delay' has to do with having the right number of people being alive for the 1,000 years and that requires the tree of life to have fruit and that was timed to not be until the time of the return. (that is it in a nut shell, preaching to the dead would also be part of the grave event)

1Pe:4:6:
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh,
but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

huh? our sin turned into righteousness?

Paul didn't teach that, just the opposite.

Ro:5:19:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ro:5:20:
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
Ro:5:21:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro:6:1:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
Ro:6:2:
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

 

[Ken Brown]

huh? our sin turned into righteousness?

Hi Lacy B, to be sure. Righteousness is DOING what the Law says to do (Rom 2:13), and ALL sinners did accomplish what the Law told them to do for their sin, which is sacrifice. All sinners did slay their offering (Yeshua), and they didn't even realize it, and they did it BY sinning. So our sin is turned INTO righteousness, even though that righteousness is as menstrual cloth (we are shedding blood, Messiah's blood), and that sin becomes a DOING of the Law (according to your faith that Messiah is your sin offering), therefore making your sin white as snow:

Isa 64:6
(6) But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf, and like the wind our iniquities take us away.

Isa 1:18
(18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

But see Lady B, the confession of our faith in admitting that we did slay Messiah by sinning, and then receiving the Grace (free gift of righteousness because we sinned-Gal 2:17) causes your sin to go INTO remission by teaching you to live the rest of your days following what G-d desires (Titus 2:11-15) instead of continuing in sin and re-crucifying Yeshua (Heb 6:4-6, 10:26-27). It's pretty simple once you see it. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Paul didn't teach that, just the opposite.

Ro:5:19:
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ro:5:20:
Moreover the law entered,
that the offence might abound.
But where sin abounded,
grace did much more abound:
Ro:5:21:
That as sin hath reigned unto death,
even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ro:6:1:
What shall we say then?
Shall we continue in sin,
that grace may abound?
Ro:6:2:
God forbid.
How shall we,
that are dead to sin,
live any longer therein?

Hi Wayfaring Stranger, don't you see where Paul states that when you INCREASE sin, you INCREASE Grace, and isn't Grace the Free Gift of Righteousness? If Paul was not teaching that by sinning we have sacrificed Yeshua (thus fulfilling righteousness), why would Paul claim that some were slanderously saying that he taught "let us do evil so that good may come." Paul's message was that all have sinned, therefore all have the free gift of righteousness (Grace). But it takes faith for this to accomplish a change in the sinner. A sinner must admit their sin did cause Yeshua to suffer and die, and then that sin can go into remission. It's pretty simple when you see it. KB

 

[Pegg]

Hi Peacemaker, we agree fully that G-d did not put His Son to death, neither did the Son kill Himself, but it was ALL of mankind (all sinners) that placed Him up on the cross/stake, and did slay Him. And there definitely was something good that came out of it. All sinners were put to death. Judgment was made, and everyone died WHEN He died, and that is why Paul no longer looked at anyone from a human point of view-all were dead. Now, if ALL were dead, who paid for their sin? If you believe Yeshua died ACCORDING to the Scriptures, you would have to say--the sinner. KB

i dont really understand this idea

Jesus didnt need to come and give his life for us....he came willingly at Gods direction...so it certainly wasnt mankind who orchestrated this. It only occured because it was Gods will, and if it was Gods will, then we really had no choice in the matter.

 

[Ken Brown]

i dont really understand this idea

Jesus didnt need to come and give his life for us....he came willingly at Gods direction...so it certainly wasnt mankind who orchestrated this. It only occured because it was Gods will, and if it was Gods will, then we really had no choice in the matter.

Hi Pegg, I know it is not easy to understand. Man didn't have a choice, mankind is sold into the slavery of sin, by being created FLESH. The flesh is what consigns or makes us bound to sin. What most don't understand is that G-d is trying to teach us and train us not to sin, and the best way was to place us under sin, and then have a plan where He would deliver us out from that slavery to sin. It took a willing Yeshua to go along with the plan, but the shedding of His innocent blood is the catalyst that helps us flee from sin, and in the process, as a gesture of fair play, G-d is allowing the sin that we were placed under to be turned INTO righteousness through Yeshua fulfilling the role of our Sacrifice. We did ALL sacrifice Him by sinning, and this is what the Law told us to do (sacrifice for your sin), and a sinner can claim that they have done this and receive the righteousness of fulfilling what the Law said to do. But the Grace has appeared to ALL men to teach everyone to STOP sinning.

Yeshua came to TAKE AWAY sin from sinners, so that they would no longer dwell therein. And the false gospel of saying that god needed to sacrifice his son in our stead so that the penalty of our sin is paid, is false. Everyone died when HE died, and I know that is a hard concept to understand, but it is true, and it is just a matter of time for everyone to "see" they are dead. True Believers DO see and then bury their dead bodies in baptism, but the rest of mankind are nothing but "walking corpses." Hopefully this helps just a little. KB

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, I know it is not easy to understand. Man didn't have a choice, mankind is sold into the slavery of sin, by being created FLESH.

are you implying that Adam and Eve were created with sin ? That when God said everything he had made was 'very good' that Adam and Eve were not created 'very good'?

We did ALL sacrifice Him by sinning, and this is what the Law told us to do (sacrifice for your sin), and a sinner can claim that they have done this and receive the righteousness of fulfilling what the Law said to do. But the Grace has appeared to ALL men to teach everyone to STOP sinning.

who orchestrated the Sacrifice of the Christ?

Yeshua came to TAKE AWAY sin from sinners, so that they would no longer dwell therein. And the false gospel of saying that god needed to sacrifice his son in our stead so that the penalty of our sin is paid, is false. Everyone died when HE died, and I know that is a hard concept to understand, but it is true, and it is just a matter of time for everyone to "see" they are dead.

does this include people who were born AFTER Jesus died?

How can it be that you and I died when he died 2,000 years ago? we were not even around then.

And what about the people who lived & died before Jesus died.... did they die 'again'?

 

[Ken Brown]

are you implying that Adam and Eve were created with sin ? That when God said everything he had made was 'very good' that Adam and Eve were not created 'very good'?

who orchestrated the Sacrifice of the Christ?

does this include people who were born AFTER Jesus died?

How can it be that you and I died when he died 2,000 years ago? we were not even around then.

And what about the people who lived & died before Jesus died.... did they die 'again'?

Hi Pegg, some tough and very good questions. Your first question...Adam and Eve were created EXACTLY like you and me, with the propensity to sin. They were like little children who didn't know their right hand from their left, which made them innocent, but still with the propensity to sin. A clear indicator that shows they were created with this propensity is the fact that they were BOTH naked, but felt no shame. Nakedness in the Scriptures is symbolic of sinfulness, and they were both created NAKED, and it took breaking a command for their eyes to be opened to REALIZE they WERE NAKED. They didn't become naked when they sinned, they just became AWARE of that nakedness when they sinned.

The rest of your questions deal with G-d's plan. Before the foundation of the world, a plan was devised to allow children to be born into G-d's family. For this to occur, mankind had to be created FLESH (with the propensity to sin), and then a Saviour would come to deliver sinful mankind out from that sin. So it is a plan foreordained by G-d to bring about the ultimate creation of Sinless or Spiritual Man. G-d's plan was that fleshly man or carnal man would be FIRST, then The Spiritual Man:

1Co 15:46
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Concerning the time frame of Yeshua being sacrificed? Are you not aware that He was SLAIN before or from the foundation of the world? Sin is what killed Him, and several very important Scriptures show this:

Joh 7:19
(19) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Breaking the commands of G-d KILLS Yeshua.

Heb 6:6
(6) If they shall fall away (into deliberate sin), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Falling away, back INTO deliberate sin, to where you would have to again go THROUGH repentance (turning from sin), means that you would be re-crucifying Yeshua afresh. This can be done at anytime throughout the history of sinful man.

Heb 10:26
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (all sinners IN IGNORANCE did slay Yeshua BY that sin, but IF one comes to the knowledge of the Truth about what their sin did, and then willfully or deliberately sins, there is no more sacrifice.)

You see Pegg, when Yeshua was LIFTED up on the Stake, He DREW All men INTO the Sacrifice (John 12:32). Everyone who has ever lived and sinned were there, and died WITH Him. That's the Power of the Stake/Cross, and I know it's not an easy teaching to grasp, but it is true. This all has to play out, and eventually, all of mankind will mourn for what they have done to Him, just as the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will do:

Zec 12:10
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Hope this helps to see where I am coming from. Thanks, KB.

 

[Conståntine]

God had been forgiving mankind for thousands of years before Jesus arrived. So a death is not needed for Gods forgiveness to be received.

Biblically speaking, you are incorrect.


Hebrews 9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26: For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

 

[Horrorble]

Biblically speaking, you are incorrect.


Hebrews 9:22: And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hebrews 9:23: It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26: For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself[/uU].

Actually she is right, Hebrews is NT. if you look at the Jewish texts which obviously we know came first:

Look at Lev 5:11 if you were poor and couldn't afford blood sacrifice then you could offer God flour.

1kings8:46-50 Solomon says if the Jews can not get to a temple because they have been captured by another nation they can pray to God for forgiveness therefore no blood sacrifice required.

Hosea 14:1-2 when Israel couldn't get to the temple because of a war they could pray to god for forgiveness so no blood sacrifice required.

2 chronicles 7:14 says you can pray forgiveness no blood sacrifice required.

Proverbs 15:8 god prefers a genuine prayer than an in genuine sacrifice.

In my opinion going to the Jewish texts to understand the Hebrew god is better as authors of the NT quote verses of the OT incorrectly and out of context to what it originally meant to the Jews.

 

[Philda Tressie]

In the OT, before the destruction of the Temple, the high priest slaughtered the sacrificial lamb once a year and sprinkled the blood to atone for the people's sins. Dismayed at the hardness of heart of man who persisted in iniquitous behaviour despite warnings by God, through the prophets to repent, Jesus, who was God incarnate, came to earth to persuade them through His teachings and His exemplary life of obedience to God. Jesus was rejected, therefore ''Plan B'': Jesus, the High Priest, the Lamb of God GAVE UP his carnate life and shed His blood to atone for our sins; a once off event requiring no repetition. Jesus' death was not a ritual killing by humans. (The age-old blaming of Jews/Romans for his death is not justified). His self-sacrifice was fulfillment of a Divine Plan to put in place the final strategy for the Salvation of mankind.

 

[Intojoy]

Hi Pegg, some tough and very good questions. Your first question...Adam and Eve were created EXACTLY like you and me, with the propensity to sin. They were like little children who didn't know their right hand from their left, which made them innocent, but still with the propensity to sin. A clear indicator that shows they were created with this propensity is the fact that they were BOTH naked, but felt no shame. Nakedness in the Scriptures is symbolic of sinfulness, and they were both created NAKED, and it took breaking a command for their eyes to be opened to REALIZE they WERE NAKED. They didn't become naked when they sinned, they just became AWARE of that nakedness when they sinned.

The rest of your questions deal with G-d's plan. Before the foundation of the world, a plan was devised to allow children to be born into G-d's family. For this to occur, mankind had to be created FLESH (with the propensity to sin), and then a Saviour would come to deliver sinful mankind out from that sin. So it is a plan foreordained by G-d to bring about the ultimate creation of Sinless or Spiritual Man. G-d's plan was that fleshly man or carnal man would be FIRST, then The Spiritual Man:

1Co 15:46
(46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Concerning the time frame of Yeshua being sacrificed? Are you not aware that He was SLAIN before or from the foundation of the world? Sin is what killed Him, and several very important Scriptures show this:

Joh 7:19
(19) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? Breaking the commands of G-d KILLS Yeshua.

Heb 6:6
(6) If they shall fall away (into deliberate sin), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Falling away, back INTO deliberate sin, to where you would have to again go THROUGH repentance (turning from sin), means that you would be re-crucifying Yeshua afresh. This can be done at anytime throughout the history of sinful man.

Heb 10:26
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (all sinners IN IGNORANCE did slay Yeshua BY that sin, but IF one comes to the knowledge of the Truth about what their sin did, and then willfully or deliberately sins, there is no more sacrifice.)

You see Pegg, when Yeshua was LIFTED up on the Stake, He DREW All men INTO the Sacrifice (John 12:32). Everyone who has ever lived and sinned were there, and died WITH Him. That's the Power of the Stake/Cross, and I know it's not an easy teaching to grasp, but it is true. This all has to play out, and eventually, all of mankind will mourn for what they have done to Him, just as the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem will do:

Zec 12:10
(10) And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Hope this helps to see where I am coming from. Thanks, KB.

Adam and Eve were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness and were sinless.
Babies are born in sin, that is not the same.

 

[Ken Brown]

Adam and Eve were created in a state of unconfirmed holiness and were sinless.
Babies are born in sin, that is not the same.

Hi Intojoy, thank you for your comments. I would like to ask you several questions:

1. If Adam and Eve had NOT sinned, would G-d's plan have been disrupted or foiled? (1 Peter 1:20)

2. What was the knowledge Adam and Eve received when they ate from the tree? (Gen 3:7)

3. Why does Paul state that the natural/carnal man was FIRST, and NOT the Spiritual Man? (1 Cor 15:46)

4. How does G-d consign or place ALL of mankind under disobedience? (Rms 11:32)

Adam and Eve were created with the same natural and carnal tendencies as their offspring:

(1Co 15:45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
(1Co 15:46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
(1Co 15:47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
(1Co 15:48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(1Co 15:49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The NATURAL/SENSUAL tendencies of the FIRST ADAM was passed on to those who are of the EARTH, and we bear the carnal image of Adam, just exactly as he was created, with the same propensity to sin as he had. Am I wrong to have that belief? KB