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Forgiveness?
- Thread starter Ken Brown
- Start date
It's not required.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Because it is not really from God and man made - A Loving, Merciful and Forgiving God does not require blood sacrifice of an innocent man to forgive others.
iolo
Member
Like so very many positions people feel they are somehow required to hold, it is a metaphor expressing the way people felt a long time ago, and it has become a shibboleth, a way of identifying 'our side'. We need to get into these metaphors, symbols and whatever and ask ourselves what they really mean, like people come of age rather than children supporting their team. I think we'd need to know what the word 'deity' actually conveys to anyone nowadays before we could start to answer.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Your opinion goes agains't the OT and the NT (old and new testaments)
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi q connor, thanks for replying, and I'm not going to speak for the NT, but the OT says this:
Deu 27:25
(25) Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Who in their right mind would want to be under a curse by taking a reward for the slaying of an innocent person? KB
Deu 27:25
(25) Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Who in their right mind would want to be under a curse by taking a reward for the slaying of an innocent person? KB
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
I'm not sure how that is revellant to your OP, The Romans for instance crucified Jesus, is that a sacrifice by your definition?
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi q connor, thanks again for responding. I was responding to your comment which quoted my response to loverOfTruth about what he said concerning the blood sacrifice of an innocent man. I just assumed you were saying his comment goes against the OT & NT. If I would have thought you were referring to my OP, I would have used this OT concept of how sin is forgiven and no longer remembered:
Eze 18:4
(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:21-23
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord G-D: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
There is no need to punish the innocent in place of the guilty to receive forgiveness, is there? KB
Eze 18:4
(4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:21-23
(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
(22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord G-D: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
There is no need to punish the innocent in place of the guilty to receive forgiveness, is there? KB
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
In my opinion, no.
iolo
Member
I mean that in the time of Jesus a successful politician like Julius Caesar could be elected a 'god' by the Roman Senate, and the 'gods' of the earlier peoples were ludicrous sex-mad absurdities. As we know more and more of the universe(s) the concept of even a transcendental God in control of the whole thing seems a bit difficult to imagine. Do we really mean that there is some sort of all-powerful version of the secret police always on our case? Clearly the reality into which we throw this word 'God' is so very different from what it was a mere two centuries ago that we simply HAVE to be using the word in a different sense, surely? So to my mind we need to be asking what in emotional daily practice the people back then were after when they used what - from our current reality - stood for something that was much more limited than we would have to be meaning.
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Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi iolo, and the point would be that back then, no matter how you viewed the diety, killing the diety or one of it's offspring would be quite senseless in terms of granting forgiveness. It's sort of like, which is easier to do, tell a lame man to take up his mat and walk, or telling him that his sins are forgiven? You don't need to shed innocent blood or not so innocent blood to obtain forgiveness, do you? KB
iolo
Member
No, but you do have to believe in the forgiver, which implies a person in personal contact, difficult to reconcile with the sort of vast computer required even to know about such a vast creation?
Harrytic
Member
Many people, especially a lot of my fellow Christians believe that God is a loving, merciful and forgiving being. But no, by nature he isnt. YES he COULD choose to just forgive. In the bible he does that some times, but by in large, this is not the way he works.
By nature (as shown in the Old testament of the bible) God is a wrathful being and his wrath must be appeased in some way before he will forgive. Innocent blood must be spilt. God loves the smell of burnt offerings as stated in numerous places in the bible. Somehow death appeases his wrath and entices him to forgive.
This may not be pretty. But God is who God is. I see no good reason to sugar coat that.
By nature (as shown in the Old testament of the bible) God is a wrathful being and his wrath must be appeased in some way before he will forgive. Innocent blood must be spilt. God loves the smell of burnt offerings as stated in numerous places in the bible. Somehow death appeases his wrath and entices him to forgive.
This may not be pretty. But God is who God is. I see no good reason to sugar coat that.
iolo
Member
You could say that the Church made a huge mistake when it incorporated all that stuff just to get the prophecies in. The New Testament is hugely more coherent.
Ken Brown
Well-Known Member
Hi Harrytic, I don't envision G-d needing buckets of innocent blood to appease his wrath or anger, I see a G-d who needs sinners to turn from their sin, and then it's a no brainer, he will forgive. What earthly parent requires their good child to be spanked instead of their disobedient children? It's commonsense. KB
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
According to the Bible, God doesn't like human sacrifice :
"You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods." Deuteronomy 12:31
Also according to the Bible, an innocent will not be held accountable for someone else's sin :
“ Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” Deuteronomy 24:16
“But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.” Jeremiah 31:30
Finally, the requirement for salvation is clearly stated (and no mention of someone dying for others sin - amend ways and repent by seeking forgiveness, that is all that is needed):
“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7