Forgiveness?

[Ken Brown]

Grace is unearned ,unmerited, and underserved favor.It works the same as the passover in the OT. The blood was put on the door posts outside of the house in Egypt. Every door that had the blood put on the door post God passed over.It is the same with those who trust in the shed blood of Jesus.God passes over those who have their faith in Christ.The works of this faith is that of love and the fruits of the spirit.
Love covers a multitude of sins.Against love their is no law.The gift is freedom from the laws of sin and death. Salvation from onesself and own condemnation.Jesus taught that one who was forgiven much would love much.He forgave sinners and taught them grace and preached laws to the religious and self righteous to reveal their shortcomings,

Hi Walkntune, thank you for responding, I thought you might have forgotten about me. I'm not sure if you have read what I wrote to Sincerly (Explanation of Grace), but you might do well to take a peak at it.

Concerning the Passover, yes, the Israelites were REQUIRED to KILL their Passover, and then strike the blood on the doorposts and the header. Then they were required to EAT the Passover IN HASTE, with their sandals on the feet, and the loins girded. And in eating the Passover, there had to be unleavened bread, and bitter herbs.

Walkntune, Spiritually, do you follow these requirements, and do you know what they mean? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, thank you for responding, I thought you might have forgotten about me. I'm not sure if you have read what I wrote to Sincerly (Explanation of Grace), but you might do well to take a peak at it.

Concerning the Passover, yes, the Israelites were REQUIRED to KILL their Passover, and then strike the blood on the doorposts and the header. Then they were required to EAT the Passover IN HASTE, with their sandals on the feet, and the loins girded. And in eating the Passover, there had to be unleavened bread, and bitter herbs.

Walkntune, Spiritually, do you follow these requirements, and do you know what they mean? KB

I read your explanation of grace. It is the same as what I believe.It is unearned,unmerited,underserved favor.We are righteous by faith only.The same way anyone was ever righteous in the scriptures.
No I do not follow any OT laws.I walk a walk of faith. My works are that of love and the fruits of the spirit.I am not religious or even ritualistic in any way . I walk Christianity out as a philosophy and not a religion.I have been saved by grace.That is saved from myself and my own efforts of the law. I am completely free of the law of sin and death.
Jesus taught that those who were forgiven much loves much. He does not condemn anyone but came to give life.We don't need to love and serve out of law. What kind of love would that be? When we find grace and truth we gladly trade in our sorrows and shame.
It is interesting how the Israelites had to eat the passover. Jesus broke bread and told his disciples to partake of his flesh.Interesting symbolism I will look into.
Right now I am still looking into that of Benjamin and how recieved grace over all his brothers. Sorry I have been working on this so not a lot of time. I will be posting on it though.
After reading your link on grace I am not sure what we disagree on except the requirment of Jesus sacrifice???The blood offering?

 

[Ken Brown]

I read your explanation of grace. It is the same as what I believe.It is unearned,unmerited,underserved favor.We are righteous by faith only.The same way anyone was ever righteous in the scriptures.
No I do not follow any OT laws.I walk a walk of faith. My works are that of love and the fruits of the spirit.I am not religious or even ritualistic in any way . I walk Christianity out as a philosophy and not a religion.I have been saved by grace.That is saved from myself and my own efforts of the law. I am completely free of the law of sin and death.
Jesus taught that those who were forgiven much loves much. He does not condemn anyone but came to give life.We don't need to love and serve out of law. What kind of love would that be? When we find grace and truth we gladly trade in our sorrows and shame.
It is interesting how the Israelites had to eat the passover. Jesus broke bread and told his disciples to partake of his flesh.Interesting symbolism I will look into.
Right now I am still looking into that of Benjamin and how recieved grace over all his brothers. Sorry I have been working on this so not a lot of time. I will be posting on it though.
After reading your link on grace I am not sure what we disagree on except the requirment of Jesus sacrifice???The blood offering?

Hi Walkntune, maybe if you could explain why you think the people thought Paul was teaching, "Let us do evil, so that good may come," then you might have a better idea of what I am saying about Grace. How in the world could those people say that about Paul? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, maybe if you could explain why you think the people thought Paul was teaching, "Let us do evil, so that good may come," then you might have a better idea of what I am saying about Grace. How in the world could those people say that about Paul? KB

Jesus taught do not resist evil.The people thought you had to resist evil to do good and thought Paul was teaching that you can be in grace and continue in sin.

Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Jesus taught a different message and Paul was trying to relay it. Jesus taught those who were forgiven much would love much.In other words those who find grace in Christ are willing to trade in their pain and sorrow for the joy of the Lord.
We get to come to God out of grace and find forgiveness.He takes away our pains and sorrows. He gives us a perfect love and peace for the trade. Who would need to be forced into such a trade?

 

[Ken Brown]

Jesus taught do not resist evil.The people thought you had to resist evil to do good and thought Paul was teaching that you can be in grace and continue in sin.

Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Jesus taught a different message and Paul was trying to relay it. Jesus taught those who were forgiven much would love much.In other words those who find grace in Christ are willing to trade in their pain and sorrow for the joy of the Lord.
We get to come to God out of grace and find forgiveness.He takes away our pains and sorrows. He gives us a perfect love and peace for the trade. Who would need to be forced into such a trade?

Hi Walkntune, those people were slanderously saying that Paul was teaching we should DO evil, so that good would result. They wrongly perceived that Paul, in his teaching on Grace, was saying that if you sin, good will come about. And that is not the message about Grace, but it is very similar. See, Paul's message about Grace was that SINNERS have accomplished the Just requirement of the Law, just by sinning. By sinning, we ALL killed Messiah (John 7:19) and He became OUR Sacrifice through that disobedience. So this is WHY those people were wrongly saying about Paul that he teaches that we should DO evil, so that good may come. Do you see the difference? Do you see how our sin is turned INTO Righteousness (doing what the Law required for sinners-which is sacrifice)? By sinning, we are actually fulfilling righteousness, and this is how our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. But this powerful GIFT that we receive from G-d (though our sin) is the horrific suffering, death, burial, and glorious 3rd day resurrection of the Messiah. And this is how Grace TEACHES us to flee from sin (we can't continue in placing Yeshua up on the Cross/Stake-Heb 6-4-8, 10:26-31). Does it make any sense at all? KB

 

[Pegg]

So G-d's love for us does not require that he kill his son (or himself) just so that he can balance the scales of justice. This is why when you look at sacrifice, you need to understand that the sinner was to place their hands upon the head of the offering, and kill it. Within Judaism, there has been argument among the Sages in the past, as to just exactly what "laying hands" upon the head of the offering meant. Was it "transference of sin" so the animal could die in the stead of the sinner, or was it "identification-becoming ONE with the offering," and the sinner could die WITH the offering. I'm certain it is the latter, it was for joining the sinner to the sacrifice so that whatever sin caused the need for sacrifice would be destroyed with the offering.

there is a problem i see with this theory

and that is that the sacrifice for sin was offered by the high priest...the animal was only touched by the high priest and no one else.
Leviticus 16:3 “With the following Aaron should come into the holy place: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. ...
15 “And he must slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people,...
16 “And he must make atonement for the holy place concerning the uncleannesses of the sons of Israel and concerning their revolts in all their sins; ...
17 “And no other man should happen to be in the tent of meeting from when he goes in to make atonement in the holy place until he comes out; and he must make atonement in behalf of himself and in behalf of his house and in behalf of the entire congregation of Israel.

So how could it be that the entire assembly of israel were joining with the sacrifice if they did not touch it?
It seems obvious to me that the 'laying on of hands' had nothing to do with transferring sin onto the animal.

Now here is the One True Gospel. All have sinned, and all have laid their hands upon Messiah, and have killed him as their sacrifice. All sinners have done this (in ignorance-Act 3:17, 1Pet 1:14-16) without any knowledge they were even involved with placing him up on the Stake/Cross.

When you say 'all have killed him'....who are you referring to?

Here is a real key point. Anyone who has had their minds "opened" to the Truth of the Gospel (that they did sacrifice the Messiah by sinning), and then fall back INTO deliberate sin (where they would need to be brought again to repentance), they are re-crucifying him afresh:

Heb 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word of G-d, and the powers of the world to come,
(6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of G-d afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is not allowed..to re-crucify Messiah and sacrifice him again:

Heb 10:26-27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

G-d's desire is that ALL come to a knowledge of the Truth, and the Truth is that Messiah died to deliver sinners OUT of sin. He was willing to suffer and die so that your sin would go into remission, it would no longer be active. He suffered and died so that every sinner's sin would be taken away from them. And if a sinner comes to the knowledge of this, and repents (turns from their sin), but then falls back into sin, it would have been better for them to have never known the Truth:

2Pe 2:20-22
(20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hopefully, this wasn't too long of a post, and that it was somewhat easier to follow. KB

i cant see how sin has gone into remission... Jesus apostles still sinned after they had been baptized. People can still make mistakes and sin...notice James advise to the christian congregation:
James 5:16 Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed....19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins

so im not sure how our theology fits with the scriptures in this regard.

 

[Ken Brown]

there is a problem i see with this theory

and that is that the sacrifice for sin was offered by the high priest...the animal was only touched by the high priest and no one else.
Leviticus 16:3 “With the following Aaron should come into the holy place: with a young bull for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. ...
15 “And he must slaughter the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people,...
16 “And he must make atonement for the holy place concerning the uncleannesses of the sons of Israel and concerning their revolts in all their sins; ...
17 “And no other man should happen to be in the tent of meeting from when he goes in to make atonement in the holy place until he comes out; and he must make atonement in behalf of himself and in behalf of his house and in behalf of the entire congregation of Israel.

So how could it be that the entire assembly of israel were joining with the sacrifice if they did not touch it?
It seems obvious to me that the 'laying on of hands' had nothing to do with transferring sin onto the animal.

When you say 'all have killed him'....who are you referring to?

i cant see how sin has gone into remission... Jesus apostles still sinned after they had been baptized. People can still make mistakes and sin...notice James advise to the christian congregation:
James 5:16 Therefore openly confess YOUR sins to one another and pray for one another, that YOU may get healed....19 My brothers, if anyone among YOU is misled from the truth and another turns him back, 20 know that he who turns a sinner back from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins

so im not sure how our theology fits with the scriptures in this regard.

Hi Pegg, thank you so much for responding, it does mean a lot to me. When I stated that all were to lay their hands upon the head of the offering, I was referring to the "sin offering" for the common people:

Lev 4:27-29
(27) And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
(28) Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
(29) And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

This sin offering of the common people was ONLY for sins committed in IGNORANCE, and Numbers bears witness to this also, but, in Numbers it states that if the sin is done "presumptuously," it requires that soul to be cut off:

Num 15:24-31
(24) Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
(25) And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
(26) And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
(27) And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
(28) And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
(29) Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
(30) But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
(31) Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

So, sins done in ignorance, can have a sin offering where the sinner places their hands upon the head of the sin offering and "slays" it. All sinners have in their ignorance participated in the slaying of Yeshua, and He is their sin offering and they have righteousness if they accept they have killed him, through their sins done in ignorance. Now, once they come to a knowledge of the Truth about the sins they performed when they ignorantly followed the desires of their flesh, killing Yeshua (John 7:19), if they then sin PRESUMPTUOUSLY (knowing what their sin is doing-killing Yeshua), they will be guilty of that sin and will have to totally reply upon the mercy of the High Priest on the Day of Atonement (Lev 16). There is a function of Lev 16 that ONLY those who have a very high level of understanding can begin to grasp and know what it means.

You ask:

When you say 'all have killed him'....who are you referring to?

I am referring to ALL sinners, you, me, and everyone who has ever sinned. Again, John 7:19...disobeying Moses KILLS Yeshua.

Finally, concerning the fact that SIN goes INTO remission. To be sure, we are flesh, and still have to contend with the principle of sin that dwells within us. But a True Believer does have their sin go INTO remission, in the same way cancer goes INTO remission. It is still there, but no longer actively KILLING the person. Paul explained it very well:

Rom 7:20
(20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

You see, Paul's HEART and MIND was totally committed to delight in the Law of G-d according to his inward man, and he no longer desired to follow the carnal man. So once your HEART and MIND become SLAVES to righteousness, you can become as John claimed a child of G-d should be:

1Jn 3:5-10
(5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
(6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
(7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
(8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of G-d was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(9) Whosoever is born of G-d doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of G-d.
(10) In this the children of G-d are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of G-d, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Pegg, don't you want to prove that you are a child of G-d, and have your sin GO INTO remission? KB

 

[Intojoy]

The standard of God (of the Bible), is flawless perfection continually.
We can't meet this. God could have allowed Adam to live eternally in an I regenerated state but He intervened by executing the just penalty for Adam's sin by entering our world, taking on our humanity, bearing our sins, dying our death. He resurrected for our sanctification and is coming again for our glorification. In other words, God found a way to forgive man and not compromise Himself, He is the justifier of man and in His justification of man, He remains righteous.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, don't you want to prove that you are a child of G-d, and have your sin GO INTO remission? KB

sure, but i dont believe we need to be followers of judaism to do that.

We need to put our faith in Christ, do the will of God (which is preach the good news of the kingdom) and practice righteousness.

We dont have to follow the law of moses. Gentile christians were given a set of moral standards which was binding... but those standards did not include the regulations of the mosaic law.

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, those people were slanderously saying that Paul was teaching we should DO evil, so that good would result. They wrongly perceived that Paul, in his teaching on Grace, was saying that if you sin, good will come about. And that is not the message about Grace, but it is very similar. See, Paul's message about Grace was that SINNERS have accomplished the Just requirement of the Law, just by sinning. By sinning, we ALL killed Messiah (John 7:19) and He became OUR Sacrifice through that disobedience. So this is WHY those people were wrongly saying about Paul that he teaches that we should DO evil, so that good may come. Do you see the difference? Do you see how our sin is turned INTO Righteousness (doing what the Law required for sinners-which is sacrifice)? By sinning, we are actually fulfilling righteousness, and this is how our righteousness can exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. But this powerful GIFT that we receive from G-d (though our sin) is the horrific suffering, death, burial, and glorious 3rd day resurrection of the Messiah. And this is how Grace TEACHES us to flee from sin (we can't continue in placing Yeshua up on the Cross/Stake-Heb 6-4-8, 10:26-31). Does it make any sense at all? KB

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28 KJV).
This does not mean that the credit and glory go to all things but they go to God.
The law was not fullfilled by sin but inspite of sin.
Just as Josepth was thrown in the ditch and plotted against to be killed and then sold into egypt.He blessed the children of Israel inspite of these things.God takes that which is evil and uses it for good. I would not credit the evil as the fullfillment.
All the glory goes to God.
Sin did not fullfill the law.The law exposed the sin.Our sin is not turned into righteousness.It Our sin is forgiven.We become righteous through faith. It was the love of Jesus and his faith and obedience that was righteous while we were yet sinners.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[Ken Brown]

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28 KJV).
This does not mean that the credit and glory go to all things but they go to God.
The law was not fullfilled by sin but inspite of sin.
Just as Josepth was thrown in the ditch and plotted against to be killed and then sold into egypt.He blessed the children of Israel inspite of these things.God takes that which is evil and uses it for good. I would not credit the evil as the fullfillment.
All the glory goes to God.
Sin did not fullfill the law.The law exposed the sin.Our sin is not turned into righteousness.It Our sin is forgiven.We become righteous through faith. It was the love of Jesus and his faith and obedience that was righteous while we were yet sinners.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Hi Walkntune, I know that what I am saying is not an easy thing to grasp. We are speaking about the FULFILLMENT of the Law. Just exactly what the Law required for sinners to do. Yeshua said that ALL things written about Him in the Law, had to be FULFILLED. Is this the fulfillment of the law you believe in, or do you have a different fulfillment of the law? Please explain how you think the Law is fulfilled? KB

 

[Walkntune]

Hi Walkntune, I know that what I am saying is not an easy thing to grasp. We are speaking about the FULFILLMENT of the Law. Just exactly what the Law required for sinners to do. Yeshua said that ALL things written about Him in the Law, had to be FULFILLED. Is this the fulfillment of the law you believe in, or do you have a different fulfillment of the law? Please explain how you think the Law is fulfilled? KB

Rhe law is fulfilled in perfect love.

 

[Ken Brown]

Rhe law is fulfilled in perfect love.

Hi Walkntune, please explain how "perfect love" fulfills the Law? And can you love perfectly, so that you would fulfill the Law? KB

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could explain why a diety, or a relative of a diety needs to die so that forgiveness of sin could be given to sinners who confess that he did this? Why not just forgive them? KB

The Christian perspective is that God wants to draw near to us, but he can't because our sins have created a wedge between us and him. He is a God of love AND justice. To simply ignore our sins would be to commit an INjustice. He sets up a sacraficial system in the Old Testament to introduce mankind to the concept of an unblemished lamb being a substitute for the punishment we deserve: death. In comes Jesus, a sinless "lamb
who takes our place on a cross and so justice has been satisfied in the eyes of God

 

[Ken Brown]

The Christian perspective is that God wants to draw near to us, but he can't because our sins have created a wedge between us and him. He is a God of love AND justice. To simply ignore our sins would be to commit an INjustice. He sets up a sacraficial system in the Old Testament to introduce mankind to the concept of an unblemished lamb being a substitute for the punishment we deserve: death. In comes Jesus, a sinless "lamb
who takes our place on a cross and so justice has been satisfied in the eyes of God

Hi Peacemaker, someone might say then let's take those 20 innocent unblemished lambs that were slaughtered up in Sandy Hook, and let's let them satisfy G-d's justice also? Do you think that is the kind of innocent blood G-d is looking at to be shed?

Let me ask you a question Peacemaker. When G-d created Adam and Eve, what was His expectations? KB

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Hi Peacemaker, someone might say then let's take those 20 innocent unblemished lambs that were slaughtered up in Sandy Hook, and let's let them satisfy G-d's justice also? Do you think that is the kind of innocent blood G-d is looking at to be shed?

Let me ask you a question Peacemaker. When G-d created Adam and Eve, what was His expectations? KB

We believe Jesus' death was enough to pay for sin. What you mentioned above is, from our pov, Satan's kingdom making its presence felt.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

An interesting point that is raised with you question about A and E is the issue of prejudging. God allows people to sin. Can he forsee it ahead of time? I would think so if he chooses too. He doesn't use any foreknowledge as grounds to judge people however. Would people really be complaining less if he levied sins consequences on people before they actually committed them. Of course we can ask, "well, if God knew the devil would lead them astray why would he put them there in the first place?" Yahweh is a God that tests people's faith to see if they trust him. He doesn't explain himself completely all the time in part because no faith would be required of the person to them believe. He tested A and E and they failed. It's that simple

 

[Ken Brown]

We believe Jesus' death was enough to pay for sin. What you mentioned above is, from our pov, Satan's kingdom making its presence felt.

Hi Peacemaker, according to the Scriptures, Innocent Blood can never PAY for sin:

Num 35:33
(33) So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.

Nor is it according to the Scriptures to punish the Innocent to justify the wicked:

Pro 17:26
(26) Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.

Exo 23:7
(7) Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Pro 17:15
(15) He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Deu 25:1
(1) If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Peacemaker, you need to re-think just exactly what G-d's justice requires. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

An interesting point that is raised with you question about A and E is the issue of prejudging. God allows people to sin. Can he forsee it ahead of time? I would think so if he chooses too. He doesn't use any foreknowledge as grounds to judge people however. Would people really be complaining less if he levied sins consequences on people before they actually committed them. Of course we can ask, "well, if God knew the devil would lead them astray why would he put them there in the first place?" Yahweh is a God that tests people's faith to see if they trust him. He doesn't explain himself completely all the time in part because no faith would be required of the person to them believe. He tested A and E and they failed. It's that simple

Hi Peacemaker, do you know why the "natural" (sensual/carnal) man was FIRST, and NOT the Spiritual Man, in G-d's plan?

1Co 15:46
(46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

Why didn't G-d start out with the Spiritual Man, why did He start out with the FLESHLY man? And then secondly, why is it that the fleshly (natural/carnal) man CANNOT and WILL NOT obey G-d (Rom 8:6-8)? KB

 

[jtartar]

Hi, I was wondering if someone could explain why a diety, or a relative of a diety needs to die so that forgiveness of sin could be given to sinners who confess that he did this? Why not just forgive them? KB

Ken Brown,
Finally a thinking man!! The Bible provides a very satisfying answer.
First, the Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23.
The Bible also tells us that sins are not charged to anyone if there is no law, so why do Christians die today, when Jesus came to earth to give his life to provide a Ransom for men so that men would not have to die, Rom 5:13, 2Cor 5:14, Heb 2:9, 1:29, 3:16.
Christians today do no die because of their sins, because Jesus died for all our sins, so when we sin our sins are not charged to us, but we are covered by Jesus ransom sacrifice, so in effect they are charged to Jesus, who has already died for the sins, Heb 10:12-18.
Since Jesus died for every man that would take advantage of his ransom sacrifice, by having faith in Jesus and his Father, John 6:28,29. Therefore, if a person is told the requirements of God and do not listen, there is NO sacrifice for him, Heb 10:26,27.
Now, the reason for Jesus coming to earth to give his life for us.
God is righteous in every way, so that He obeys His own rules. God had allowed the Israelites to sacrifice bulls and goats to keep them from dying for their sins. The blood of goats and bulls can never cause the sins of men to be forgiven, Heb 9:9-15, 10:1-4, Acts 13:48,49.
Consider Romans 3:21-26, where Paul explains exactly why God could not just forgive the sins of man, but God could count every man as justified, who puts his faith in the Ransom Sacrifice of Jesus.
All men are imperfect, so no imperfect man could provide the ransom for mankind.
Remember the ransom is so that we can receive back what Adam lost for us, perfect life. So Jesus became that perfect man so that he could provide a ransom for us because Jesus remained perfect until death.
So, as the scriptures say God remained righteous even when forgiving sinful men, because of the perfect ransom sacrifice of His son, Rom 3:24-26.