Is the grace and power of God required to live righteously?

[Hope]

It will get you nowhere if you don't actually go by what the scriptures say if you claim to go by the scriptures and you try to use cherry picked verses out of context to negate what it plainly says or redefine it.

And I could say the same thing to you. That is why I think this discussion will go nowhere....I've had discussions before with other Christians who think as you do, and there are just enough verses that seem to support both sides that it makes every argument simply end with a "well, we'll just have to agree to disagree."

 

[Shermana]

And I could say the same thing to you. That is why I think this discussion will go nowhere....I've had discussions before with other Christians who think as you do, and there are just enough verses that seem to support both sides that it makes every argument simply end with a "well, we'll just have to agree to disagree."

So you're saying that there's no point in having a debate about the subject on a debate board where its pertinent to the OP?

Heck, in Luke it says that Zecariah and Elizabeth were righteous because they were obedient to all the statutes and commandments., That should quash any dissent on the issue.

 

[waitasec]

Because I don't have to work so hard to please God!!

how convenient.

My acceptance is not based on anything I do or don't do, but on the righteousness of Christ alone. And that is a massive load off one's back!

what you are saying, or at least what i'm getting, is that you are not responsible or culpable for your actions.... i find that to be.... morally irresponsible since what only really matters for you is what god thinks of you...no matter what you do.

again, how incredibly convenient for you.

 

[Oryonder]

It is self-deluded to think I can be as righteous as God without His aiding me. That is all.

With all due respect, while I am enjoying this argument, I'm getting dizzy from going in circles so much trying to explain a simple principle over and over.

Is the expectation to be as righteous as God ? What would this even mean.

God did aid humans in obtaining righteousness by giving man a brain.

If faith or grace was all that was required to obtain righteousness then there really is no point in having a brain is there ?

If this is what God wanted .. then why not just create a bunch of mindless robots.

The purpose for having a brain IMO is so that humans can come to an understanding of right and wrong . Claiming "all I need is faith in Grace" is basically saying "I do not need to use my brain".

 

[waitasec]

The point of abstaining from sin once you're saved is to bring honor and glory to the One Who saved you

so its about presentation and not substance...

impressive.

 

[waitasec]

Is the expectation to be as righteous as God ? What would this even mean.

God did aid humans in obtaining righteousness by giving man a brain.

If faith or grace was all that was required to obtain righteousness then there really is no point in having a brain is there ?

If this is what God wanted .. then why not just create a bunch of mindless robots.

The purpose for having a brain IMO is so that humans can come to an understanding of right and wrong . Claiming "all I need is faith in Grace" is basically saying "I do not need to use my brain".

this would make sense if Hope believed in the literal interpretation if the fall of man in genesis.
as god created man with out the ability to tell the difference between good and evil and he wanted it to stay that way since it was forbidden for them to attain such knowledge.

 

[Oryonder]

this would make sense if Hope believed in the literal interpretation if the fall of man in genesis.
as god created man with out the ability to tell the difference between good and evil and he wanted it to stay that way since it was forbidden for them to attain such knowledge.

Regardless of how man was originally created it was God who gave man the ability to think.

To claim "it was that bad snakes fault" is basically to claim that God is not .. "God" .. or at least not the creator of everything and not all powerfull.

If God is all powerfull then obviously God knew beforehand what would transpire.

 

[waitasec]

Regardless of how man was originally created it was God who gave man the ability to think.

that is debatable.

he did create a mindless robot who had the ability to choose...

it just doesn't add up

 

[Hope]

So you're saying that there's no point in having a debate about the subject on a debate board where its pertinent to the OP?

No. If you'd like to debate it, that's fine....I just don't think it will be beneficial, however pertinent it may be.

Heck, in Luke it says that Zecariah and Elizabeth were righteous because they were obedient to all the statutes and commandments., That should quash any dissent on the issue.

It also says in Genesis (and in Romans) that Abraham was righteous because he believed God. So which is it? Commandments or faith?

 

[waitasec]

No. If you'd like to debate it, that's fine....I just don't think it will be beneficial, however pertinent it may be.

debating is beneficial.

 

[Hope]

how convenient.




what you are saying, or at least what i'm getting, is that you are not responsible or culpable for your actions.... i find that to be.... morally irresponsible since what only really matters for you is what god thinks of you...no matter what you do.

again, how incredibly convenient for you.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Just because God accepts me does not mean He always approves my actions and behavior. I'm afraid you are taking just tidbits of what I say and jumping to your own hasty conclusions.

Just as any good earthly father loves and accepts his children no matter what they do, but still disciplines them when they go astray, in a similar manner God treats His children. I am accepted no matter what I do, yes. He doesn't throw me to the curb when I screw up. He loves me unconditionally. However, He definitely still holds me accountable for the times I screw up, and will discipline me when I do.

In other words, my relationship with God is not performance-based. I don't have to be perfect (in my own strength) to get Him to love or accept me. He already loves and accepts me. This is what gives me security and a deep sense of freedom. This is what should give security and freedom in ANY relationship, human or divine. This doesn't mean I can do whatever I please and not face the consequences, but it also means I am not automatically cast out when I mess up. Do you see the difference?

 

[Sleeppy]

So you're saying that there's no point in having a debate about the subject on a debate board where its pertinent to the OP?

Heck, in Luke it says that Zecariah and Elizabeth were righteous because they were obedient to all the statutes and commandments., That should quash any dissent on the issue.

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest, by name Zacharias, of the course of Abijah, and his wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name Elisabeth; and they were both righteous before God, going on in all the commands and righteousnesses of the Lord blameless.

There's a distinction between commands and righteousness being displayed here. They are presented separately.

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus answering said to him, 'Suffer now, for thus it is becoming to us to fulfill all righteousness,' then he doth suffer him.

Was Jesus' baptism a matter of command or faith?

Matthew 3:8-9 Bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation, and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham.

It should be plain to see that it is God who raises up sons to the faithful father Abraham, to the fulfillment of all righteousness and reformation.

Psalm 22:9-10 For thou [art] He bringing me forth from the womb, Causing me to trust, On the breasts of my mother. On Thee I have been cast from the womb, From the belly of my mother Thou [art] my God.

Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, `Father, forgive them, for they have not known what they do.

It is the all-knowing God that gives knowledge. And being that there is one God, there is only one knowledge. God is the only source. It has been the mistake of every man in Adam to believe that there is knowledge apart from God. This is the mistake that Adam made in believing in the serpent. The serpent scrambled Adam's knowledge and misplaced his faith. We are all Adam. Not one of us has any other human father to claim. And so, that same serpent confuses us to this day. Some more than others. It is the Spirit of God which reveals all things, and reforms us - saves us.

John 14:26 The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you.

 

[waitasec]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Just because God accepts me does not mean He always approves my actions and behavior. I'm afraid you are taking just tidbits of what I say and jumping to your own hasty conclusions.

but i haven't made a conclusion. perhaps you over looked this:

what you are saying, or at least what i'm getting,

i'm just trying to see if you can clarify your position.
when you make statements like this

Hmmm...no actually, realizing I can't be righteous apart from God is incredibly freeing.

correct me if i'm wrong but
doesn't that imply you are righteous because you are with god?

and you are forgetting one little detail. people can be righteous without god.

Just as any good earthly father loves and accepts his children no matter what they do, but still disciplines them when they go astray, in a similar manner God treats His children. I am accepted no matter what I do, yes. He doesn't throw me to the curb when I screw up. He loves me unconditionally. However, He definitely still holds me accountable for the times I screw up, and will discipline me when I do.

i'm curious what this disciplinary action from god entails. are you talking about consequences that would apply to both the believer and non believer?

In other words, my relationship with God is not performance-based. I don't have to be perfect (in my own strength) to get Him to love or accept me. He already loves and accepts me.

convenient.

edit:
believing is a performance...it is something you do all by your self.
there is an offer, you choose to take it.
isn't it nice to know that you take 50% of the credit for your righteousness?

This is what gives me security and a deep sense of freedom. This is what should give security and freedom in ANY relationship, human or divine.

makes sense.i don't see how anyone else couldn't have this sense of freedom you are talking about as they would adhere to such a convenient theology

This doesn't mean I can do whatever I please and not face the consequences,

funny. non believers don't do what they please as well as they too are able to understand the consequences of their actions

but it also means I am not automatically cast out when I mess up. Do you see the difference?

cast out of what? i thought you felt free.

 

[Shermana]

There's a distinction between commands and righteousness being displayed here. They are presented separately.

IT still says "They were righteous", so the commandments and "Righteousness" are both part of "being righteous". Including the commandments.

 

[Sleeppy]

IT still says "They were righteous", so the commandments and "Righteousness" are both part of "being righteous". Including the commandments.

Of course. Righteousness is ultimately faith in God's will. What commands they knew, they upheld blamelessly. I'm not disagreeing there, but with the idea that righteousness originates with man. There is one God. One creator. There is one existence. Righteousness is alignment with the will of God.

 

[Shermana]

And as long as you view the "Will of God" as obedience to the same commandments upheld in 1 John 5:3, we have no problem.

 

[waitasec]

Of course. Righteousness is ultimately faith in God's will. What commands they knew, they upheld blamelessly. I'm not disagreeing there, but with the idea that righteousness originates with man. There is one God. One creator. There is one existence. Righteousness is alignment with the will of God.

not really. but if it makes you feel better...

 

[Sunstone]

Of course. Righteousness is ultimately faith in God's will. What commands they knew, they upheld blamelessly. I'm not disagreeing there, but with the idea that righteousness originates with man. There is one God. One creator. There is one existence. Righteousness is alignment with the will of God.

I agree with you. At least I agree with you in the sense that, however else it might be defined, there can be a somewhat technical meaning given to the word "righteousness" and you have more or less nailed that meaning. But when used in such a way, righteousness is not necessarily synonymous with "moral" or "ethical" as those terms are commonly used.

 

[Sleeppy]

And as long as you view the "Will of God" as obedience to the same commandments upheld in 1 John 5:3, we have no problem.

Jesus called Satan the god of this world. Meaning, Satan has power over the world. Where does his power originate from? Not from himself, but from God Almighty. Unless men are given a greater power to withstand, they are enslaved. Some are enslaved to the power of God, until their reformation is completed, others are enslaved, for a time and for a purpose, to the power of Satan, until their appointed time.

John 8:44-45 'Ye are of a father -- the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar -- also his father.

And because I say the truth, ye do not believe me.'

John 12:31-32 'Now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth; and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

God will remove Satan from his dominion over the world. All has its time and purpose.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ah, so you think you don't have to do anything except claim to believe in Jesus as Lord and Christ? Even Paul disagrees. Paul says that there is in fact a set of standards you have to obey. He clearly points out that unrepentant sinners will not enter the kingdom. How does that jive?

The notion that the quality of ones character and conduct is ultimately meaningless is a rather sick, sad and swallow way of looking at life.