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Is the grace and power of God required to live righteously?

Oryonder

Active Member
that is debatable.

he did create a mindless robot who had the ability to choose...

it just doesn't add up

If something has the ability to choose it is not mindless.

This has zero to do with whether or not "right from wrong" was part of the original programming.

The point is that it was "God" who determined that Man would gain this ability unless you believe in a God with limited powers.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If something has the ability to choose it is not mindless.
why do you think i said this?
it just doesn't add up

This has zero to do with whether or not "right from wrong" was part of the original programming.
were they forbidden from partaking from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil...?
:yes:
it's like saying.
thou shall not eat from the tree of glipper and glopper or you will die.

so being in the state of not knowing that dying was not good, since they didn't know what good meant, how could they make an informed decision?



The point is that it was "God" who determined that Man would gain this ability unless you believe in a God with limited powers.
fyi...whenever anyone puts a label on god, they are limiting god.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
why do you think i said this?



were they forbidden from partaking from the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil...?
:yes:
it's like saying.
thou shall not eat from the tree of glipper and glopper or you will die.

so being in the state of not knowing that dying was not good, since they didn't know what good meant, how could they make an informed decision?
.

Well .. supposedly God told them not to do it so all they had to do was obey God.

God also would have known that the he had created man and woman to be weak .. and that the serpent was likely to tempt them and they would not be able to resist.

Then God comes along and says .. you bad people .. you did exactly what I had programmed you to do so now you will die.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
My question to those who believe that no supernatural assistence is required to truly live well, then what's your secret? How are you able to forgive and love your enemies? How are you able to control your temper and speak well of others, even if they're people that aren't very nice to you and/or make your life more difficult? How are you able to be patient with such people? I'm not really concerned with how you love your friends because anybody can do that
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Well .. supposedly God told them not to do it so all they had to do was obey God.
which ignores the point i made earlier,
how could they know obeying was good if they didn't know the difference between good and evil?

God also would have known that the he had created man and woman to be weak .. and that the serpent was likely to tempt them and they would not be able to resist.
Then God comes along and says .. you bad people .. you did exactly what I had programmed you to do so now you will die.

then god set man up to fail.

thats like saying to your 2 yr old child, don't cross the street and leave him to his own understanding ...

nice god you got there.
:facepalm:
 

Oryonder

Active Member
then god set man up to fail.

thats like saying to your 2 yr old child, don't cross the street and leave him to his own understanding ...

nice god you got there.
:facepalm:

That is exactly what I am saying .. The story as written does not make any sense.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
My question to those who believe that no supernatural assistence is required to truly live well, then what's your secret? How are you able to forgive and love your enemies? How are you able to control your temper and speak well of others, even if they're people that aren't very nice to you and/or make your life more difficult? How are you able to be patient with such people? I'm not really concerned with how you love your friends because anybody can do that

we are all born with the ability to rationalize and to empathize

at least i can say i am free to be good without the fear of being tortured for not choosing to.
 

Oryonder

Active Member
:confused:

did you not read this

The claim was that righteousness can not be obtained without the aid of God.

My comment had nothing to do with a literal interpretation.

It is simple logic that if God gave us a brain that the intention was for humans to use that brain to figure things out for themselves ..
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
we are all born with the ability to rationalize and to empathize

at least i can say i am free to be good without the fear of being tortured for not choosing to.

Would it be accurate to translate this post as an admission that such good deeds as the ones I mentioned are absolutely impossible through man's strength alone?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Would it be accurate to translate this post as an admission that such good deeds as the ones I mentioned are absolutely impossible through man's strength alone?

what are you talking about?
what can a believer do that a non believer can't.


what would be really cool is if the believer never got sick or never died.
now that would be a true testament to the cleansing power of the blood of the lamb of god
 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
I think you miss the point. God didn't set the bar high out of cruel disdain---if you think this is the case, then you haven't studied your Bible very well. He set the bar high simply to show us our own inability and weakness---something we sinful, prideful humans tend to often be in denial about---and then sent Jesus to do what we could never do.

I think the story of the prodigal son in the New Testament is the perfect illustration of the heart of God. Basically, when we rebel, as the younger son did, God, as our father, says, ok, have your way, I won't stop you. He then lets the natural consequences of our sin be our punishment, until we finally come to our senses and realize we actually need Him. When we realize this, and come rushing to Him in humility and repentance, He doesn't cast us out and say, well, too bad, you didn't measure up---He welcomes us with open arms.

You see, what God is really after is relationship, and it's our sin that gets in the way of that relationship. So, in a "tough love," so to speak, God has to show us how weak and sinful we really are in order that we might finally turn to Him to help us deal with that sin. Story after story after story in the Bible illustrates this.

Sorry for the delay....
Well, tough love is really not the best kind of love. Sometimes it certainly appears that God behaves in the way that, as I noted, emotionally cruel people do. They cause hurt to their charges, then hide it beneath the guise of polite words and 'love'. They set their charges up for falls, then are conveniently there to catch them when they are hurt. Again, place this method in the hands of a human and once his MO was exposed, you'd revile him. Why exactly is it immoral for a person, but moral for God, doing the exact same thing?
It is a very manipulative way to operate; especially since it is he who made us sinful in the first place.

I understand your affection for the story of the Prodigal Son tale but I don't see it as relevant when discussing Man's sinful nature as a whole, since if he had not returned, the PS's fate would be Hell.

The presence of Hell in the equation removes the 'love' portion of 'tough love'.

Ah...see, you prove my point! ;)
God isn't looking for proud, self-sufficient people. He's looking for broken, humble people. Those are the only people He can truly have a relationship with. Because He Himself is "gentle and humble in heart."
And why isn't he looking for proud people?

What, exactly, is wrong with being happy that one is capable on one's own?
Why are the capable people not rewarded? Why are they seen with scorn?
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
what are you talking about?
what can a believer do that a non believer can't.


what would be really cool is if the believer never got sick or never died.
now that would be a true testament to the cleansing power of the blood of the lamb of god

I would say nothing apart from the grace and power of God
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I would say nothing apart from the grace and power of God

Why did God create people if he only wanted automatons?

Also, how do you explain the fact that atheists, and other non-Christians, are able to not lie, murder, cheat, steal, etc, just fine without asking God to help them out?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Of course. Righteousness is ultimately faith in God's will. What commands they knew, they upheld blamelessly. I'm not disagreeing there, but with the idea that righteousness originates with man. There is one God. One creator. There is one existence. Righteousness is alignment with the will of God.

Sunstone said:
I agree with you. At least I agree with you in the sense that, however else it might be defined, there can be a somewhat technical meaning given to the word "righteousness" and you have more or less nailed that meaning. But when used in such a way, righteousness is not necessarily synonymous with "moral" or "ethical" as those terms are commonly used.

Very good point!

Although, that makes me wonder, what exactly is righteousness if it is divorced from morality and virtues?

Also, re-reading Sleeppy's definition of righteousness, how exactly is God righteous? Isn't it pretty meaningless, or at least not very praiseworthy, to say that "God is righteous" then?
 
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