Is the grace and power of God required to live righteously?

[Hope]

Look forward to it. But you don't believe that being good and loving your family and your fellow man is part of righteousness, it's just what god considers righteous is righteous? It is simply an arbitrary decision reserved for god?

Hmmm....how to explain. Yes, being good, loving your family, etc., are all part of righteousness, but I guess we need to clarify that there is man's so-called righteousness, and then there is God's righteousness. None of man's good works, in and of themselves, please God.

"...all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment." ~Isaiah 64:6

This is why we can never please God in our own strength, no matter how good we are. Because our righteousness, compared to His, which is true righteousness, is not enough. I wouldn't say God is arbitrary about righteousness...He is simply righteousness personified and therefore has every right to reject our feeble attempts at righteousness.

So Pol Pot may be considered righteous by your god? And Hitler and Stalin and Genghis Khan?

If Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc., ever repented of their sins and trusted in Christ to be their righteousness, then, yes, they would've been righteous. Unfortunately, there is no evidence any of them ever did this.

If your husband had sex with your daughters, would you consider him righteous? Because your god would, apparently.

My husband (hypothetically-speaking, as I don't have one) could do any number of heinous sins, and if he repented of them, and trusted in Christ, then, yes, he would be considered righteous. I think you're missing the whole point about repentance and faith. God's not saying, hey, go sin as much as you want, it's ok, you're still righteous...He's saying, if you sin, and then you're genuinely repentant and come to Me through Jesus Christ, trusting in His sacrifice to cleanse you and present you as righteous before Me, then, and only then, are you righteous.

And, by the way, just because God may forgive and cleanse people of heinous sins and declare them righteous doesn't mean they don't still have to deal with the consequences of their sin and be disciplined. A murderer or sex offender that turns to Christ will still have to deal with their earthly punishment. God doesn't simply "let them off the hook."

 

[Hope]

Hitler was a Catholic, and the catholic church never opposed him. So given that he had Faith in Jesus Christ... Hope's model makes him more righteous than say, Gandhi.

I seriously question Hitler's "faith in Jesus Christ." There is absolutely no evidence of this that I am aware of. So, no, he was not righteous in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Nakosis]

I seriously question Hitler's "faith in Jesus Christ." There is absolutely no evidence of this that I am aware of. So, no, he was not righteous in any way, shape, or form.

Is any man?

Never mind the question, I see from earlier posts you accept the righteousness of Christians.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Do you believe that some people (who actually disbelieve in 'God' or reject the concept of any God as having the legitimate authority by which to control their lives) may live 'righteously'?

 

[waitasec]

I'd have to say yes. I can't count all the times I've prayed to be less angry, to be more patient, to be more forgiving, and felt a change directly after I prayed. Isn't it time we all admit that the human heart is broken and that we don't possess the power to completely master it?


edit: translation of any Christianese
By "power" I mean the strength of God/the strength he gives us to overcome our weaknesses.

hmmm.


the will to learn from experience is what teaches us to overcome our weaknesses.

By "grace" I mean that such gifts are not distributed based on any merit that we possess. By "righteous living" I simply mean doing good deeds (loving our enemy, practice sexual purity, being slow to anger, forgiving, etc)

belief is not grace then as belief is something you posses which brings you back to where you started.

 

[Me Myself]

I seriously question Hitler's "faith in Jesus Christ." There is absolutely no evidence of this that I am aware of. So, no, he was not righteous in any way, shape, or form.

Why? he said many times he believed in God, including the autobiography he did since way before becoming the known figure he ended up being.

I am really prone to assume the only reason you disbelief he believed in Jesus is naivity.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

No. I meant, why would you want to 'do these things' at all?

ie., live by the rules of the bible god.

Not that you couldn't live by the bible god's rules in a self reliant manner
if you wanted to...
but, why would you want to?

Ahh, I see, I see. Hm, as another poster put it, the things I would want to do in this case, are indeed, not only from the Biblical God I think what I was trying to put forth is that, I would rather accomplish this kind of living, through my own power, and be proud to show myself to such a God or Gods for having done so [as teh case may be], rather than relying on that God to infuse me with some nebulous power; it implies I was incompetent to help my fellows or myself, without him.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

This is why we can never please God in our own strength, no matter how good we are. Because our righteousness, compared to His, which is true righteousness, is not enough. I wouldn't say God is arbitrary about righteousness...He is simply righteousness personified and therefore has every right to reject our feeble attempts at righteousness.

It seems either cruelty, or simple disdain, rather than love, to set a bar for people that one knows they can never accomplish, and then blame them for it.

If I see a human father doing this to a child, I consider that father emotionally abusive.

 

[Me Myself]

It seems either cruelty, or simple disdain, rather than love, to set a bar for people that one knows they can never accomplish, and then blame them for it.

If I see a human father doing this to a child, I consider that father emotionally abusive.

Agree 100%

 

[Hope]

Why? he said many times he believed in God, including the autobiography he did since way before becoming the known figure he ended up being.

I am really prone to assume the only reason you disbelief he believed in Jesus is naivity.

No I'm not naive. I am aware of Hitler's claims. However, anyone can claim to be a Christian, yet if their life does not line up with their claim, then I have no reason to believe that claim. Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. A man who slaughtered millions of people and never showed any remorse or repentance for his deeds and no actual evidence of a relationship with Christ fails to convince me he was truly a Christian.

 

[Storm]

I'd have to say yes. I can't count all the times I've prayed to be less angry, to be more patient, to be more forgiving, and felt a change directly after I prayed. Isn't it time we all admit that the human heart is broken and that we don't possess the power to completely master it?


edit: translation of any Christianese

By "power" I mean the strength of God/the strength he gives us to overcome our weaknesses. By "grace" I mean that such gifts are not distributed based on any merit that we possess. By "righteous living" I simply mean doing good deeds (loving our enemy, practice sexual purity, being slow to anger, forgiving, etc)

In a word: NO!

 

[waitasec]

It seems either cruelty, or simple disdain, rather than love, to set a bar for people that one knows they can never accomplish, and then blame them for it.

If I see a human father doing this to a child, I consider that father emotionally abusive.

it's interesting how some cannot see the double standards they live by

 

[Hope]

It seems either cruelty, or simple disdain, rather than love, to set a bar for people that one knows they can never accomplish, and then blame them for it.

If I see a human father doing this to a child, I consider that father emotionally abusive.

I think you miss the point. God didn't set the bar high out of cruel disdain---if you think this is the case, then you haven't studied your Bible very well. He set the bar high simply to show us our own inability and weakness---something we sinful, prideful humans tend to often be in denial about---and then sent Jesus to do what we could never do.

I think the story of the prodigal son in the New Testament is the perfect illustration of the heart of God. Basically, when we rebel, as the younger son did, God, as our father, says, ok, have your way, I won't stop you. He then lets the natural consequences of our sin be our punishment, until we finally come to our senses and realize we actually need Him. When we realize this, and come rushing to Him in humility and repentance, He doesn't cast us out and say, well, too bad, you didn't measure up---He welcomes us with open arms.

You see, what God is really after is relationship, and it's our sin that gets in the way of that relationship. So, in a "tough love," so to speak, God has to show us how weak and sinful we really are in order that we might finally turn to Him to help us deal with that sin. Story after story after story in the Bible illustrates this.

 

[Hope]

I think what I was trying to put forth is that, I would rather accomplish this kind of living, through my own power, and be proud to show myself to such a God or Gods for having done so [as teh case may be], rather than relying on that God to infuse me with some nebulous power; it implies I was incompetent to help my fellows or myself, without him.

Ah...see, you prove my point!

God isn't looking for proud, self-sufficient people. He's looking for broken, humble people. Those are the only people He can truly have a relationship with. Because He Himself is "gentle and humble in heart."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ah...see, you prove my point!

God isn't looking for proud, self-sufficient people. He's looking for broken, humble people. Those are the only people He can truly have a relationship with. Because He Himself is "gentle and humble in heart."

That sounds an awful lot to me like a good setup for an abusive relationship.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No I'm not naive. I am aware of Hitler's claims. However, anyone can claim to be a Christian, yet if their life does not line up with their claim, then I have no reason to believe that claim. Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. A man who slaughtered millions of people and never showed any remorse or repentance for his deeds and no actual evidence of a relationship with Christ fails to convince me he was truly a Christian.

Would this also apply to somebody who would command his follower to gut his son to prove his obedience, or would slaughter the firstborn of an entire nation with a plague, or would drown the population of the world with a flood? What do we know from those fruits?

I heard on the radio this morning that a case where two teenagers drowned a dog has drawn hundreds of people out to picket on the courthouse steps. The act was so appalling that many people are demanding a very harsh sentence. Why is it that drowning one dog is an abhorrent crime, but drowning *millions* of people (and dogs, and everything else) is held up as a symbol of righteousness, if not a literal event?

IMO, the Holocaust is completely in keeping with these sorts of deeds.

 

[Nakosis]

Ah...see, you prove my point!

God isn't looking for proud, self-sufficient people. He's looking for broken, humble people. Those are the only people He can truly have a relationship with. Because He Himself is "gentle and humble in heart."

Sorry, I think that is what your religion tells you. So you'll be dependent on the authority of the church. Your imperfection gives them power. So the religious leaders focus on your faults. If you were perfect you wouldn't have much use for them.

 

[Hope]

Sorry, I think that is what your religion tells you. So you'll be dependent on the authority of the church. Your imperfection gives them power. So the religious leaders focus on your faults. If you were perfect you wouldn't have much use for them.

I'm not dependent on the authority of the church. I'm dependent on the authority of Christ, and there is a huge difference between the two!

 

[Hope]

That sounds an awful lot to me like a good setup for an abusive relationship.

Only if one in the relationship is proud, imperfect, and controlling.

Notice I quoted the verse where Jesus says He is gentle and humble in heart. There is nothing to fear in a relationship with someone like that. Especially when He's perfect and sinless.

 

[Me Myself]

Ah...see, you prove my point!

God isn't looking for proud, self-sufficient people. He's looking for broken, humble people.

If one of your sheep escapes, will you not go and look for your one sheep leaving all your other sheeps behind?

God is looking for everyone. ESPECIALLY the proud people.

About self suficiency, that has never ever been a sin.