D-MITCH777
Member
What are your views of Evolution?
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Judaism and Evolution
- Thread starter D-MITCH777
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It's organic elegance, both powerful and beautiful.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Most people I've met in the Haredi (fundamentalist ultra-Orthodox) world don't believe in evolution or other kinds of science. But most everyone else I've ever encountered in the Jewish world (Haredim being a small but very vocal minority of the Jewish People) understands that evolution and other kinds of science are reality, and we interpret Genesis metaphorically, bearing that in mind.
It's worth noting, by the way, that Rambam (Rabbi Moshe Maimonides, 12th century, one of our greatest thinkers ever) said that if one is interpreting Torah in such a way that it appears to contradict everything that one understands to be true about the world as learned from reason and natural philosophy (which is medieval-speak for "science") then one is clearly interpreting Torah incorrectly, since it is (in his view) unthinkable that Torah would contradict the way that God's world actually functions.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
evolution is an observable fact. religion on the other hand is a cultural and psychological construct with plenty of room for personal interpretation. I believe that religion should be viewed in naturalistic terms, to me the psychological reasons for religious theology supersede the traditional ones, and in Judaism more than the other Abrahamic religions we must apply a deeper and better understanding of why things are written the way they are, before we only look at the literal layer.
Dena
Active Member
It's heretical to interpret science in a way that contradicts Torah and says G-d couldn't of created the world in 6 days. It says in Gemara Rosh Hashana that the world was created fully mature. This is fact is never stressed enough these days. Therefor, the world could theoretically of been created in 6 24 hour days according to the Gemara and evolution would not be in any way conflicting. Additionally, all the other stories which seem to place the sequence of events out of place according to the theory of evolution, could be compatible. This is without a doubt an approach that cannot be challenged. Simply because it makes the claim that the world is young but looks old. Therefor, if we maintain the world is 5772 years old, yet you say this rock is 30 million years old - we Jews say we're both correct.
Additionally, since reptiles were considered to be precursors to birds, yet they have found bird fossils older than any reptilian fossils, I would have to question anyways whether or not evolution has figured out the completely accurate order of events in terms of what came first. It's a theory that is not complete. Granted it does seem logical and quite likely is real. But, to agree with the statement of modern evolution scientists which say the world is billions of years old, then quote Rambam to explain how if science contradicts the Torah, and how we're interpreting the Torah wrong, thus postulating that this story must be metaphorical - that is a major chilul Hashem and a great misuse of the Rambam. There's Torah sources not written as apologetics on this matter, which say the world was created looking billions of years old and you say that Bereishis must be metaphorical and not literal because of an incomplete theory like evolution, despite the fact that the literal interpretation is not mutually exclusive of what scientists have said... Absolute non-sense.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Heretical so far only according to one Jewish member on this forum. I believe it's safe to say that the rest of us accept the scientific version.
The Bible is not a scientific textbook, don't do the mistake of mixing the two.
This is some of the most bizarre belief system I have come across.
furthermore I would avoid implying that other members of this forum are heretics because they disagree with you.
I find it hard to believe you find that belief system bizzare. Why is it foreign? You seem to be able to say that it's impossible the Torah can be taken literally regarding this story. Yet, the Gemara states the world was created maturely. You quote the Gemara in your signature yet find it bizzare that I quote the Gemara to say that the historical Jewish interpretation of this matter is not inherently mutually exclusive of evolution? The same belief system you find bizzare is the same belief system that Judaism has always held. It doesn't matter if evolution exists as a valid theory or not. It says clearly that the world was created fully mature. Therefor, whether it's true or not doesn't matter since the process was billions of years old already when the world was created.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
My quote says nothing about the natural world. big difference.
Your opinion. and yes even if the Gemara says so.
Also, I'm not saying the Torah is a scientific text book. I just proved to you that it's possible evolution can exist and not contradict the Torahs literal meaning. It doesn't matter what science says in this case since this is not a question of science. Science can't contradict this since the assumption is, it really just looks that old. It can't be measured by science because any rock you carbon date will be millions of years older than 5772 years. You get that, right? The world is billions of years old but was only created 5772 years ago. That's what the Gemara teaches. So, whether you agree with my assertion that the ideas mentioned saying the Torah must be metaphorical on this matter is truly heretical or not is tough to argue against from a logical stand point. Unless of course you don't believe G-d could do anything and that the Talmud just isn't true. Then, fine. But, you're violating the Rambam's 13 principles. Which, ironically he was quoted to justify the claim that the Torah can't be literal on this.
Incorrect. That is not my opinion. I didn't make this up. It's in the Gemara.
Whether or not your quote talks about the natural world is irrelevant. The point is, you quote the Gemara and find this belief strange. Why not say the whole thing is strange?
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The Gemara is wrong.
Two things:
To debate in the Judaism DIR is expressly prohibited.
To say such puts one's opinions outside of both Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, which implies that one should take those opinions to another part of the forum.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Its a modern interpretation of the Gemara in light of modern scientific revelations. the Gemara says nothing, yes NOTHING about geological datings in billions of years which are a direct result of modern science. face it, the modern theory of evolution has nothing to do with the Gemara.
Of course it does. I don't try to mix Rabbinic or Talmudic sayings with modern science. in my university the Biology class was in a different building from the Judaism class.
:yes:
Then why don't you say anything to Yochai who pulled the 'heretic' card first. the rest of us were having a perfectly normal discussion without refering to each other as such.
This is neither the Conservative nor the Orthodox DIR. but I agree, Yochai is forcing a debate on the rest of us. he could have simply stated his opinion without arguing or preaching.
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Perhaps he can elaborate here.
Actually, debate would imply that my statement is trying to be proven. They asked what my opinion was on evolution. I gave it to you. My opinion is that Levites is heretical. You want proof it's heretical? Rambam's 13 principles. Have fun. Maybe if you spent the time learning Torah you did biology, you'd realize properly what I'm saying. I'm actually not trying to debate you. You clearly can't understand what I'm saying. This is not a modern interpertation of the Gemara. Be honest, have you even learned Gemara before in your entire life? I mean properly. Not from Soncino or Artscroll?
My interpretation is not a modern interpretation. It's an ancient opinion in Judaism which has been around thousands of years before me stating that the world was created fully mature. If the Judaism has always stressed that there is one G-d who created everything (including the laws which govern nature, such as evolution) that means that evolution was created 5772 years ago being billions of years old already. It is not a new interpretation, it is an old one applied to modern dilemmas that you've never heard of. Big difference.
On a seperate note, this is neither the Secular Jewish forum either.
In my opinion, the tone here is wholly unwarranted.
Nor is it improved when filtered through a 'No True Scottish Talmud Scholar' fallacy.
Yes.
But is it not also true that the Gemara is a body of opinion valued, in part, for its openness to highly individual and sometimes counterposed views?
And is it not also true that there is no orthodox article of faith insisting that the amoraim, while deemed authoritative and worthy of respect, are infallible and that every opinion to be found in the Gemara is therefore necessarily true?
Perhaps we could all learn a lesson from the Gemara and not be so quick to throw people out of the tribe.
On the topic at hand: this is informative.
And, speaking of science, Talmud, and infallibility:I think we can all agree that one thing that clearly evolved was a religion with an amazing intellectual integrity and courage!
Pesachim 94b
Rabbi Yehudah Hanasi says that the gentiles' scientific theory is more probably correct than Chazal's:
פסחים צד: (ש"ס ווילנא
חכמי ישראל אומרים ביום חמה מהלכת למטה מן הרקיע ובלילה למעלה מן הרקיע וחכמי אומות העולם אומרים ביום חמה מהלכת למטה מן הרקיע ובלילה למטה מן הקרקע א"ר ונראין דבריהן מדברינו שביום מעינות צוננין ובלילה רותחין. עכ"ל
The Sages of Israel maintain: The sun travels beneath the sky by day and above the sky at night; while the Sages of the nations of the world maintain: It travels beneath the sky by day and below the earth at night. Said Rabbi: And their view is preferable to ours, for the wells are cold by day but warm at night. [translation by Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman in The Babylonian Talmud, Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein, ed., Seder Mo'ed Vol. IV (Pesahim), London: Soncino, 1938]
punkdbass
I will be what I will be
I remember reading a few articles at aish.com that try to explain, using Einsteins law of relativity, that it is possible for the world to be both old and young simultaneously - thus supporting both scientific and biblical claims about the age of the universe.
I think this might be the article. I'm not saying this is what I believe, I just think you guys might find it interesting. I think the article definitely over simplifies the concept(in reality a lot more advanced math would be needed to prove such a concept), but it's an interesting read nontheless.
I think this might be the article. I'm not saying this is what I believe, I just think you guys might find it interesting. I think the article definitely over simplifies the concept(in reality a lot more advanced math would be needed to prove such a concept), but it's an interesting read nontheless.