Is the Existence of God really worth debating?

[zemelo.franky]

I'm frustrated by the apparent need for people of different faiths (I consider atheism a faith as well) to engage in discussions in which the know, prior to even beginning, that they don't intend to exchange ideas. They want to convince, proselytize.

As far as I can tell, the existence (or non-existence) of god is not only obviously unprovable given modern technology and intelligence, but is probably never going to be provable because of mathematical principles (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Uncertainty Principle, etc.).

But that last part doesn't really matter; whether or not god can or can not be proven is moot, because we can't do it right now. What I'm praying for is the day when we realize this and hang up the gloves, turn our spirituality inward instead of outward, and learn to enjoy the process of living.

Perhaps the greatest idea conceived by the American forefathers was the Separation of Church and State. Over time "church" somehow came to denote only Christianity. I think we now can admit to ourselves that the Church of Liberalism and the Church of Conservatism have far eclipsed any other American religion, and have essentially become the Inquisitions of our day.

 

[PolyHedral]

A God that cannot be substantiated by science, even in principle, by definition does not exist. (Proof is the realm of mathematics.)

But most people don't say that God can't be substantiated by science, because they make claims about the real world. They say, "God healed this!" and "God stopped that!" Those claims can be tested by science, despite claims to the contrary. However, when they are tested, the tests come back negative.

 

[Thief]

True enough....
There will no photograph...no fingerprint.....no equation.....

But faith needs no proving.

When it comes down to believing in God....you have to make up your mind about it.

Believing in an afterlife, would be a good start.

 

[Willamena]

I'm frustrated by the apparent need for people of different faiths (I consider atheism a faith as well) to engage in discussions in which the know, prior to even beginning, that they don't intend to exchange ideas. They want to convince, proselytize.

As far as I can tell, the existence (or non-existence) of god is not only obviously unprovable given modern technology and intelligence, but is probably never going to be provable because of mathematical principles (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Uncertainty Principle, etc.).

But that last part doesn't really matter; whether or not god can or can not be proven is moot, because we can't do it right now. What I'm praying for is the day when we realize this and hang up the gloves, turn our spirituality inward instead of outward, and learn to enjoy the process of living.

Perhaps the greatest idea conceived by the American forefathers was the Separation of Church and State. Over time "church" somehow came to denote only Christianity. I think we now can admit to ourselves that the Church of Liberalism and the Church of Conservatism have far eclipsed any other American religion, and have essentially become the Inquisitions of our day.

So don't talk to them about the existence of God. There's plenty of other topics.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Nearly all God concepts, being either unrestrained by natural law, or non-interactive with natural law, can never be evidenced using the science of natural law.
Certain concepts of God, however, can be easily dismissed when all natural evidence goes against the claims made by those supporting that concept. For instance, the "God" of a literalistic interpretation of many scriptures.

 

[bobhikes]

So don't talk to them about the existence of God. There's plenty of other topics.

Agreed, It is the same old boring stuff over and over again anyway.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So don't talk to them about the existence of God. There's plenty of other topics.

Like breakfast cereal. :yes:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A God that cannot be substantiated by science, even in principle, by definition does not exist.

 

[Onkara]

I'm frustrated by the apparent need for people of different faiths (I consider atheism a faith as well) to engage in discussions in which the know, prior to even beginning, that they don't intend to exchange ideas. They want to convince, proselytize.

As far as I can tell, the existence (or non-existence) of god is not only obviously unprovable given modern technology and intelligence, but is probably never going to be provable because of mathematical principles (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Uncertainty Principle, etc.).

But that last part doesn't really matter; whether or not god can or can not be proven is moot, because we can't do it right now.

Agreed, the reason is that it keeps us deluded. Whilst we are deluded then we are much more fun to watch. (no sarcasm here).

The "answers" only start when we move beyond this argument and begin to explore beyond "God" or "no-god" for ourselves, taken one or the other as the foundation for our investigation. Whilst someone dwells on this futile topic, others are "getting on with it".

 

[Caladan]

Perhaps the greatest idea conceived by the American forefathers was the Separation of Church and State. Over time "church" somehow came to denote only Christianity. I think we now can admit to ourselves that the Church of Liberalism and the Church of Conservatism have far eclipsed any other American religion, and have essentially become the Inquisitions of our day.

That is very well put.
Any person should live their life as best as they can. at the end of each day they only have themselves to answer to.
they ought to be the observer of their life.

 

[outhouse]

I'm frustrated by the apparent need for people of different faiths (I consider atheism a faith as well) to engage in discussions in which the know, prior to even beginning, that they don't intend to exchange ideas. They want to convince, proselytize.

As far as I can tell, the existence (or non-existence) of god is not only obviously unprovable given modern technology and intelligence, but is probably never going to be provable because of mathematical principles (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, Uncertainty Principle, etc.).

But that last part doesn't really matter; whether or not god can or can not be proven is moot, because we can't do it right now. What I'm praying for is the day when we realize this and hang up the gloves, turn our spirituality inward instead of outward, and learn to enjoy the process of living.

Perhaps the greatest idea conceived by the American forefathers was the Separation of Church and State. Over time "church" somehow came to denote only Christianity. I think we now can admit to ourselves that the Church of Liberalism and the Church of Conservatism have far eclipsed any other American religion, and have essentially become the Inquisitions of our day.

atheism isnt a faith


God cannot be proved or disproven beyond imagination.

there is however overwhelming evidence that man creates deities at will.


When it comes to man made deities you are as much a skeptic as I am, you do in fact agree that man makes deities do you not???

 

[zemelo.franky]

I disagree that discussing "God" is not worth the while; in fact, it is the only discussion that remains when all others end (it owes this to the nature of the question, which I think most of us agree upon). I think the problem is that we (read: most people) haven't figured out a way to discuss our most personal and private values dispassionately. However, I'm not willing to give up on it. Here is how I look at it:

As a person lives (let's say evolves, treating the person as a finite system), they inevitably come across things beyond their ken, and likely often. Based on observation, I would argue that most human brains are unable to handle this overwhelming knowledge, and thus they are forced to invoke "God," or risk being driven insane. Literally.

Think of it this way: go outside and look up at the sky. Can you fathom it? How about what's beyond it? The sheer size of the numbers are so impossibly vast, and yet we toss around terms like "a million light-years" as if we can even wrap our heads around how absurd that distance is relative to us. We literally can't understand it, except as "a lot." So, we invoke "God," and just accept it.

Personally (and I don't like to impose my personal beliefs, excepting in cases of poking fun or playing pranks, the latter for which I believe I owe some of the regulars here an apology - sometimes I don't control myself*) - wow, okay, starting over after that tangent...

Personally, I don't care whether or not a person believes in god or twenty of them, so long as they leave me the hell along to believe whatever I want. Laissez faire, if you will. For a while I thought this tactic would be sufficient to attain balance and happiness, but it didn't take long to realize that there are simply people in this world who take and take and take. I'm currently wondering what the solution to that problem is (obviously education, but what exactly is missing?).

I could talk about this forever (the inability to intelligently and dispassionately discuss religion), but I think I've said enough for now.

 

[zemelo.franky]

atheism isnt a faith

Of course Atheism is a faith. It is the completely faith-based conclusion that god does not or can not exist. I'm happy to debate the merits of such a position, but what I'm not interested in is the argument that there is more evidence against the existence of a god than there is for it. There is equal evidence for both sides (zero).

God cannot be proved or disproven beyond imagination.

Not really sure what you mean by this. In my opinion, the impossibility stems from the fact that we can never attain direct access to the "noumenon."

Example: If a snake looks at your hand, it sees infrared (a snake's infrared sensors connect to its brain via the optic nerve, meaning it "sees" heat). When you look at your hand, you see the human optical spectrum of visible light (ROY-G-BIV, red to violet). So; what does your hand really look like? Whatever it is, that is the noumenon (what you and the snake see are phenomena, in contrast to noumena).

there is however overwhelming evidence that man creates deities at will.

You are presupposing many things with this statement; your own existence, for one. While I tend to agree that reality probably reflects sensory experience (we evolved these particular senses for a reason, because they facilitate survival in our environment), philosophically you can't claim evidence when you can't even prove that you yourself are real.

When it comes to man made deities you are as much a skeptic as I am, you do in fact agree that man makes deities do you not???

If by "makes" you mean creates conceptually, I would say that this certainly seems to happen, but is by no means unique, let alone proven.

I think you need to reassess your approach here; I don't want to agree with you, but it has nothing to do with your point, and everything to do with the way you've gone about making it. This is the type of proselytizing I'm talking about. You don't need my approval; if we disagree, we should be able to enjoy discussing why with sharp, well-thought-out arguments and a firm but polite discourse.

 

[outhouse]

atheism isnt a faith


God cannot be proved or disproven beyond imagination.

there is however overwhelming evidence that man creates deities at will.


When it comes to man made deities you are as much a skeptic as I am, you do in fact agree that man makes deities do you not???

A simple yes would have worked zemelo.


the rest still stands no matter how you personally choose to slice it.

 

[zemelo.franky]

Okay, not to be rude but we're not on the same page here. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Skwim]

So don't talk to them about the existence of God. There's plenty of other topics.

Exactly!

 

[PolyHedral]

Have I missed something?

 

[zemelo.franky]

Have I missed something?

Don't feed the troll.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A God that cannot be substantiated by science, even in principle, by definition does not exist.

Have I missed something?

Do you truly believe that everthing that exists can be substantiated by science? So, for example, did nothing exist before 1 Planck time?

 

[zemelo.franky]

Do you truly believe that everthing that exists can be substantiated by science? So, for example, did nothing exist before 1 Planck time?

You're obviously smart and just waiting for someone to catch your interest, so... what is that you want to talk about? I'm incredibly interested in hearing it.