what is the origin of sin/evil?

[Beaudreaux]

Our agency is proof that we have no beginning

OR, the fact that we all HAVE a beginning (hallmark has made millions selling cards about it) is proof that we don't have free will.

 

[Beaudreaux]

F'htang!

What you are assuming is God's omniscience as a form of precognition, narrowing our will to strictures, vitiating the will itself. Not so. God is also omnipresent, so there is no need for precognition, because he witnesses you before you do something, as you do something and after. Precognition to the omnipresent would be like someone riding a bike 500 miles, when they have a jet. Redundant, illogical, etc.

It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.

God must love time since he created so much of it.

Think about this if Adam had never sinned would Adam have been limited by time? No, because if Adam had obeyed God then Adam would have never died but retained his perfectly healthy mind and body being sound in all respects.

So God's purpose is that we should not be limited by time.
Since we sin we die. We can not resurrect oneself or another.
Because Jesus took our place, so to speak, then Jesus will resurrect us.
During Jesus peaceful thousand-year reign over earth not only will there be peace on earth but as Revelation 21vs4,5 says even death will be no more.
No more death means 'unlimited time' from then on everlastingly forever.

Who is limited in time according to Rev 12v12 is the devil.
Sinner Satan is not death proof.
Jesus destroys the devil according to Hebrews 2v14 b.
Only wicked are destroyed or annihilated- Psalm 92v7.

Doesn't Jesus offer us eternal life or everlasting life?
That is time with no limit attached.
Only some that died after Jesus died will go to heaven.
The majority of mankind will live forever on earth.
Only those committing the unforgivable sin are excluded Matt 12v32.
Jesus fulfills the promise to Abraham that all earth's families and all earth's nations will be blessed. Blessed with ongoing life without end on a beautiful paradisaic earth starting with the living righteous ones on earth at the time of Matthew 25v32.

 

[Abulafia]

It is not God's experience of time that vitiates free will. It is the way WE experience time that does. If God exists, I can understand that HE would not be limited by time, but WE are.

Erm...uhuh....your point being...?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Erm...uhuh....your point being...?

My point is this. When theists are presented with this problem, they often try to explain it away by talking about how God experiences time or about how He is not bound by time and so forth. But God's omniscience makes free will impossible because of the way WE experience time, not God. It is because WE are bound by time that foreknowledge makes choice impossible. How God experiences time is irrelevant.

 

[Abulafia]

My point is this. When theists are presented with this problem, they often try to explain it away by talking about how God experiences time or about how He is not bound by time and so forth. But God's omniscience makes free will impossible because of the way WE experience time, not God. It is because WE are bound by time that foreknowledge makes choice impossible. How God experiences time is irrelevant.

Very well, sure, you can't fly to Timbuktu either. That, technically, is impeding your free-will too. Every limitation that you possess, is "placed" in "design" by God. But the free-will of choosing between the actions you possess, and utilizing your form of reason, however, is not impeded. You are not omniscient, so you are lacking there as well, but you CAN choose between A and B or even *gasp* C !

 

[Beaudreaux]

Very well, sure, you can't fly to Timbuktu either. That, technically, is impeding your free-will too. Every limitation that you possess, is "placed" in "design" by God. But the free-will of choosing between the actions you possess, and utilizing your form of reason, however, is not impeded. You are not omniscient, so you are lacking there as well, but you CAN choose between A and B or even *gasp* C !

Oh really? If God knows you will choose one of them, is it possible you will choose one of the other two? Remember, if you choose one of the other two, then God was wrong. Also keep in mind that this argument does not need to know which choice God foreknows; only that he does foreknow one of them.

 

[gnostic]

Evil originated when the Scots or Irish invented the 1st bagpipes.

 

[Abulafia]

Oh really? If God knows you will choose one of them, is it possible you will choose one of the other two? Remember, if you choose one of the other two, then God was wrong. Also keep in mind that this argument does not need to know which choice God foreknows; only that he does foreknow one of them.

I thought we eliminated the misguided concept of foreknowledge? Apparently not. :areyoucra

God knows you as you enact option C....

He observes and knows you at this moment, a still fragment of time, but populated by one of God's many presences...he knows you now and what you are doing.

God knew you before you enacted option C...

God watches you mull over the options, weighing to consequences. He hears you think of A, B, and C, a silent, waiting entity.

God knew you after you encated option C...

God sees you suffer or benefit from the option you chose, silently relating your distance from Him.

If we suppose that God, seperate from the universal laws, theories and possibilities, as manifests of Himself, logically is independent of the influence of time, not regarding it as a constant, 1 dimensional force, but rather, a process where he exists in all places, time and otherwise. He exists at the Greek Pantheon, at the fall of Rome, at Custer's Last Stand, at Janissary Plaza, and at London's Great Evacuation (LGE)...precognition and foreknowledge is not a method of his omniscience...

 

[Beaudreaux]

I thought we eliminated the misguided concept of foreknowledge? Apparently not. :areyoucra

God knows you as you enact option C....

He observes and knows you at this moment, a still fragment of time, but populated by one of God's many presences...he knows you now and what you are doing.

God knew you before you enacted option C...

God watches you mull over the options, weighing to consequences. He hears you think of A, B, and C, a silent, waiting entity.

God knew you after you encated option C...

God sees you suffer or benefit from the option you chose, silently relating your distance from Him.

If we suppose that God, seperate from the universal laws, theories and possibilities, as manifests of Himself, logically is independent of the influence of time, not regarding it as a constant, 1 dimensional force, but rather, a process where he exists in all places, time and otherwise. He exists at the Greek Pantheon, at the fall of Rome, at Custer's Last Stand, at Janissary Plaza, and at London's Great Evacuation (LGE)...precognition and foreknowledge is not a method of his omniscience...

You did not answer my question. With this "explanation" of how God knows I will pick option C, is it possible I will pick A or B when the time comes for ME?

 

[Abulafia]

You did not answer my question. With this "explanation" of how God knows I will pick option C, is it possible I will pick A or B when the time comes for ME?

First you must elaborate your question. Explain what you take to be impeding your choice.

 

[Beaudreaux]

You did not answer my question. With this "explanation" of how God knows I will pick option C, is it possible I will pick A or B when the time comes for ME?

First you must elaborate your question. Explain what you take to be impeding your choice.

First things first. Before we start discussing the nature of the impedance, we must determine if there IS impedance. Either way, you should be able to answer the question. Is it possible I will do A or B when God knows I will do C?

 

[Abulafia]

First things first. Before we start discussing the nature of the impedance, we must determine if there IS impedance. Either way, you should be able to answer the question. Is it possible I will do A or B when God knows I will do C?

I wager a yes, aside from precognition, which I have already demonstrated is not an agent of the Godhead, infallible extrapolation, which is likewise, or corresponding to the linear view of time.

 

[logician]

what is the origin of sin/evil? who is to blame for the existence of sin?if god is omnibenevolent, and his creation is perfect in his image, and there is no sin in heaven, then how could lucifer(god's creation) sin against god in heaven? it is said that lucifer felt pride and/or jealousy, both of which are considered sins. so how could sin be part of lucifer's nature if god created him in the absence of sin?

There is no "sin" or "evil" in the sense of some presence or entity, some people just do things that are not correct for the society they live in.

 

[McBell]

First things first. Before we start discussing the nature of the impedance, we must determine if there IS impedance.

The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......

 

[Abulafia]

The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......

I think he's waiting to catch one of us in faux pas (induced by exasperation of course), then whip out a denoument. :sarcastic

 

[Beaudreaux]

I wager a yes, aside from precognition, which I have already demonstrated is not an agent of the Godhead, infallible extrapolation, which is likewise, or corresponding to the linear view of time.

Oh! So, when God knows I will do C, it is possible I might NOT do C. So, it is possible for God to make an error?

 

[Beaudreaux]

The very thing you have as yet to show...the impedance......

The impossibility of free will with an omniscient God has been shown to you multiple times. You still have not refuted a single part of the argument. You cannot just say I haven't shown it to be true. I have. Do you have a problem with anything about my proof?

 

[Abulafia]

Oh! So, when God knows I will do C, it is possible I might NOT do C. So, it is possible for God to make an error?

I admit: That was a mistake...you of the clever phrasings. :cover:

Aside from that dreadful post, refer to my earlier one.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I admit: That was a mistake...you of the clever phrasings. :cover:

Aside from that dreadful post, refer to my earlier one.

Which earlier one? There are several and I believe I have responded to them all.