Let's Talk about Heaven

[Cordoba]

Don't you think it is also a part of human nature for a wife not to want to share her husband with other women?

Often this is the case

But in Heaven there will be no jealousy, as God will remove from the hearts of all dwellers of Paradise any negative feelings like jealousy

It is the Abode of Peace where all will live in peace

 

[K.Venugopal]

Often this is the case

But in Heaven there will be no jealousy, as God will remove from the hearts of all dwellers of Paradise any negative feelings like jealousy

It is the Abode of Peace where all will live in peace

Don't you think lust is also a negative feeling? If God can remove jealousy and allow women to permit their husbands to be shared, why can't God remove lust and allow men to restrict themselves to one woman each?

 

[averageJOE]

On the Day of Judgment, some believers whose bad deeds exceed their good deeds will not enter Paradise with those who are admitted there.

If they have even a very small amount of faith in their heart, God will allow intercession to take place, for people of Heaven interceding for God to forgive their relatives or friends who are in Hell

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, will intercede for believers, and they will eventually end up in Heaven

That dosn't make any sense. You didn't answer anything. Are you saying everyone will eventually make it into heaven?

I'm talking about people with absolutly NO amount of faith in their heart. None. And say that person is my close relative (son, daughter, mother, father, brother, or sister). How can I truly be happy in heaven knowing they are in hell? Even if it is for a little while?

And what's this ridiculous notion of husbands and wives in heaven?

 

[Autodidact]

Here is a pristine example of how pure truth gets corrupted. Someone comes up with a novel idea and attaches it to established theology after which they manage to convince others that they know what they are talking about. The idea catches on until it fuses itself into the mainstream waiting for someone else to morph it again.

If knowledge is light then maybe you should light a candle or two and stop spewing rhetoric that you can not possibly have any foundation upon which it stems.

Would you like to share your view of heaven?

 

[Cordoba]

Don't you think lust is also a negative feeling? If God can remove jealousy and allow women to permit their husbands to be shared, why can't God remove lust and allow men to restrict themselves to one woman each?

It is human nature for men and women to be attracted to each other, and this is no problem if it's within the framework of the marriage institution

In Heaven, husband and wife relations is one of the rewards for believers, and God rewards believers the way He likes

 

[Cordoba]

I'm talking about people with absolutly NO amount of faith in their heart. None. And say that person is my close relative (son, daughter, mother, father, brother, or sister). How can I truly be happy in heaven knowing they are in hell? Even if it is for a little while?

That was the feeling of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, when his son refused to board the ship with other believers. He was sad to see his son drown as a disbeliever, but that was God's will, and he eventually got over it

I assume the same would happen in Heaven as God would heal the sadness of believers seeing those they love who did not accept faith not admitted into Heaven

In fact, this is the case of the uncle of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. His name was Abu Talib, and he protected the prophet in the early years from his enemies in Makkah but refused to accept faith. The prophet was sad for him as God informed him that he would be in Hell. Being the uncle of the prophet does not mean he will be admitted to Paradise if he does not believe.

As for those who have even a small amount of faith in their hearts, there is a hadith which states that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, will intercede for them on the Day of Judgment, and his intercession will be accepted. The Prophet will himself go from Heaven to take them out of Hell, and God will forgive them and admit them into Heaven.

 

[K.Venugopal]

It is human nature for men and women to be attracted to each other, and this is no problem if it's within the framework of the marriage institution

In Heaven, husband and wife relations is one of the rewards for believers, and God rewards believers the way He likes

Even within the Islamic framework of the marriage institution, only 4 wives (at a time) are allowed. But why the promise of 72 virgins in heaven for men? Within what framework of the marriage institution does this allocation fall?

 

[averageJOE]

That was the feeling of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, when his son refused to board the ship with other believers. He was sad to see his son drown as a disbeliever, but that was God's will, and he eventually got over it

I assume the same would happen in Heaven as God would heal the sadness of believers seeing those they love who did not accept faith not admitted into Heaven

In fact, this is the case of the uncle of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. His name was Abu Talib, and he protected the prophet in the early years from his enemies in Makkah but refused to accept faith. The prophet was sad for him as God informed him that he would be in Hell. Being the uncle of the prophet does not mean he will be admitted to Paradise if he does not believe.

As for those who have even a small amount of faith in their hearts, there is a hadith which states that Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, will intercede for them on the Day of Judgment, and his intercession will be accepted. The Prophet will himself go from Heaven to take them out of Hell, and God will forgive them and admit them into Heaven.

If my child is being tortured in hell while I'm in heaven your saying that with god's will I will eventually "get over it"? That he will "heal" our saddness? It sounds like god will take away the love I have for my child, or fool me into beliveing that "it's for the best". This heaven of yours sounds like an exclusive club for the selfish.

 

[Evandr]

Would you like to share your view of heaven?

Sure, I have always been a very logical person so when I consider all the generally accepted information about God as viewed by Christianity I have to conclude the following about the realms of God or what most people would call "Heaven", conclusions supported by those I believe to be prophets both anciently and presently.

The absolute love of God coupled with His perfect devotion to justice makes it abundantly clear that a "black and white" concept of Heaven and Hell must most certainly fall short of reality; it simply does not fit the concept of God. I believe that just like different levels of power and authority exist in any organization so will there be in the realms of God, only those who choose not to be a part of the organization in any level and walk out will be forever denied what they threw away (Lucifer threw it all away by rebellion and was cast out into a place known as outer darkness or a place where no glory exists at all). Such an organization can, top to bottom, be a place where all the basic needs of the individuals are met (this would reconcile the Love of God) but, due to the character demonstrated by each member of the organization, some are entrusted with greater power and authority (AKA Glory) while others are restricted due to their own actions and demonstrations (this reconciles the justice of God). Some will go on to head their own organizations (this is eternal life and exaltation in the kingdom of God) while others will be confined to the mail room (figuratively speaking, it being a state of Glory outside the presence of the Father) without any opportunity to progress (known as eternal life without exaltation). Others will be somewhere in the middle, again, depending on what they demonstrated as being the proper place for them by their own actions. In any case all will be well cared for but those at the bottom will lament their failure when success will have been shown as something that was relatively easy to obtain.

Final judgment will be perfect because it will not really be a judgment in the purest sense of the word but more of a declaration of what has been in the past and therefore a pronouncement of what must be in the future. Also, progress does not end in death, only at the time of final judgment which is still afar off in terms of mortal recollection of time.

Remember, this is what I believe, you believe what you want but try to make all the pieces fit so a thinking mind can reconcile your train of thought. Failure to do this is what I believe is skewing Christian theology into something so complicated that is fails to measure up to any logical concept of organization; Current Christian theology depends so completely on vague ideas and concepts that cannot be explained that it is no wonder that so many are walking around in a confused daze trying to make sense of something that has no sensible foundation upon which to build. The concept of Heaven has to start on a solid foundation; what we know of god, and then build from there, line upon line and precept upon precept. It has to be a complete package not a whole slew of cute little ideas that do not fit together, confusing the concept of order and organization and therefore the human intellect.

 

[Cordoba]

If my child is being tortured in hell while I'm in heaven your saying that with god's will I will eventually "get over it"? That he will "heal" our saddness? It sounds like god will take away the love I have for my child, or fool me into beliveing that "it's for the best".

Lets hope this is not the case, but if something like that happens a believer trusts that God will deal with it.

There will be no negative feelings in Heaven: no jealousy, no sadness, no worries and no pain

 

[Evandr]

Lets hope this is not the case, but if something like that happens a believer trusts that God will deal with it.

There will be no negative feelings in Heaven: no jealousy, no sadness, no worries and no pain

True, but not because God will have to deal with it, God has already dealt with it. Unlike the beliefs of Islam, the Love and mercy of God extends to all His offspring (children) not just a select few who pander at His feet. The only people who "suffer in Hell" as you call it are those who walk into it on their own knowing exactly what they are doing. All others will have a place prepared for them, a place of glory but glory from glory can differ one from another just as the stars on the heavens differ in glory.
I will never be able to reconcile the concept of perfect love and the intentional inflicting of physical torment on a son or daughter, it makes no sense but the idea does sooth the disgruntled mind of someone whose ideology is being rejected. I have been told that I am going to Hell because I reject Islam; my faith in God and His matchless power not to have to have to consign someone to Hell against their will is not as weak as one who would believe such a thing. Such a belief paints a dreary and dismally weak picture of deity, denying them any real power at all to control their own actions, making them little more than children themselves throwing tantrums against those who do not, for whatever reason, get in line with their demands.

 

[Cordoba]

It's God who set the rules Evandr, and He has given people free choice to believe or disbelieve, but at the same time He has warned those who choose disbelief of the Hereafter

Muslim don't claim that Heaven is exclusively for them

But we believe Islam is God's final guidance to humanity, and that the Qur'an is God's final revelation

The Qur'an in verse (2:62) says that believers of other faiths will also be in Heaven, though most Muslim scholars interpret this verse as being believers of other faiths (mainly Judaism and Christianity) before Islam, or those after Islam who did not receive God's final message

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Women in Heaven enjoy the delights of Paradise with their husbands

A man can have more than one wife in Paradise, but it's part of human nature for a wife to have one husband

Speak for yourself.

There are women who naturally find themselves loving more than one man, and for their husbands to be perfectly OK with it. :rainbow1:

Back to the OP....

Heaven to me is a cage. It's fluff for people who want to escape pain and misery, which I understand to a degree. The reason I find it a cage is because I don't want opportunities to end for me - for all eternity - to help others less fortunate than I.

 

[Evandr]

It's God who set the rules Evandr, and He has given people free choice to believe or disbelieve, but at the same time He has warned those who choose disbelief of the Hereafter

Muslim don't claim that Heaven is exclusively for them

But we believe Islam is God's final guidance to humanity, and that the Qur'an is God's final revelation

The Qur'an in verse (2:62) says that believers of other faiths will also be in Heaven, though most Muslim scholars interpret this verse as being believers of other faiths (mainly Judaism and Christianity) before Islam, or those after Islam who did not receive God's final message

Fair enough, but I heard a prominent Islamic militant who sat with Barbara Walters and told her in no uncertain terms that she was going to Hell because she did not embrace Islam as was all others who failed to do so. Where was his understanding of verse 2:62

This is one of the biggest problems I have with the Islamic faith, their almost
in-your-face dictum that outsiders must not compare or question the rhetoric of Islamic clergy, they must accept what they are told when they are told it, praise Allah, embrace Islam and disregard the extensive and blatantly obvious contradictions found in those who defend Islam, equating violence, and the ruthless attitude of their God toward his children with the claim that God is good. All this being said while those such as you claim just the opposit.

So who is right, you or the one being interviewed by Barbara Walters? I would like very much to listen while the two of you try to hash that one out to a logical and mutually agreeable conclusion.

The individual arguments used by Islamic faithful seem to detach themselves from the whole of the religion and construct themselves solely for the purpose of answering questions or criticism. When one steps back and views the whole of the concept of Islamic professions it seems as an incongruent collection of ideas crafted to sustain themselves giving little or no thought to the whole of what they profess to be part of and/or any contradictions that are found in it.

 

[Cordoba]

Extremists and fanatics are found in all faiths, Evan, and the absence of a unified authority among Muslims is part of the main problem we have today

The right answers are usually found among moderates who represent the mainstream, not the small minority on the fringe

It is God who judges and decides who will go to Heaven and who won't, but each single human being has a place reserved for them in Heaven.

God by His Mercy wants all mankind to be in Heaven, but at the same time He knows that some/many people will choose the other path by their own free will

 

[xkatz]

Yes, an eternal life of peace

Do you not like to have peace of mind and to live in peace?

Sorry for taking so long to respond, as I forgot about this thread.

Anyways, I do not see the point of being in heaven with god if there is nothing to do and if can do all things that we ever wanted to do. It's just a free for all and seems rather pointless and selfish/greedy.

 

[Cordoba]

There will be plenty to do there, don't worry xkatz

In this world, if you go on a seven star holiday in a beautiful location somewhere, with tons of activities to do and plenty of entertainment, would you decline?

On the spiritual level, the peace of Heaven and the feeling of God being pleased with the dwellers of Paradise will be the highest level of happiness any person could dream of ...

The concept of greed does not apply in Heaven as all negative human traits will vanish before entering Paradise.

Think of the contrast between this world and the Hereafter like a student who studies hard all term and when he/she scores an A, they graduate and are rewarded

Would they be greedy or selfish to enjoy the reward of their hard work?

 

[xkatz]

There will be plenty to do there, don't worry xkatz

In this world, if you go on a seven star holiday in a beautiful location somewhere, with tons of activities to do and plenty of entertainment, would you decline?

On the spiritual level, the peace of Heaven and the feeling of God being pleased with the dwellers of Paradise will be the highest level of happiness any person could dream of ...

The concept of greed does not apply in Heaven as all negative human traits will vanish before entering Paradise.

Think of the contrast between this world and the Hereafter like a student who studies hard all term and when he/she scores an A, they graduate and are rewarded

Would they be greedy or selfish to enjoy the reward of their hard work?

It's not that there would not enough things to do or places to go. It's just, when there is no "bad", there is no "good" IMO. With the negative aspects of life, all the positive aspects seem to lose their purpose and enjoyment.

I do not think people are or would be greedy to go to paradise so to say. It's just that why should people be only enjoying themselves whereas they could get joy by helping and/or guiding people in this life. Isn't the fact that people in paradise are merely enjoying themselves while they do not do anything about terrible things happening in this life, selfish or greedy?

 

[Cordoba]

I do not think people are or would be greedy to go to paradise so to say. It's just that why should people be only enjoying themselves whereas they could get joy by helping and/or guiding people in this life. Isn't the fact that people in paradise are merely enjoying themselves while they do not do anything about terrible things happening in this life, selfish or greedy?

There no human beings in Paradise right now, so there are no people there now who could help alleviate problems we humans face right now in this life on earth

Yes there are angels, and they do pray for people on earth

But entering Heaven will only take place after this world ends, and all people of all past and future generations will be gathered on the Day of Judgment

On that Day, those who will receive God's Mercy will then be admitted into Paradise, but not before

 

[xkatz]

There no human beings in Paradise right now, so there are no people there now who could help alleviate problems we humans face right now in this life on earth

So you believe humans only go on the Day of Judgment? What about people who have passed away already? Are they just in limbo?