Ask PW about her faith

[Caladan]

How intelligent of creator to set up the universe in a way that would lead to the natural formation of life and for over those billions of years for it to develop into the species we see today, including us!

Do you really believe that, or is it a metaphor?
how do you feel about the evolutionary biologists who say that there is no need for an intelligent force or a creator for the emergence of intelligent life forms, and that it's the forces of evolution and natural selection which resulted in such life forms?

 

[painted wolf]

I'm just trying to understand your position. In your faith have humans arisen to a higher form of life than the animal kingdom?

No... humans are no higher than any other living thing... we all walk with creators love. I believe I mentioned this already in this thread.

Why would we want to be better than everything else? We focus on being the best we can in our own lives, not being better than anyone else. If anything our abilities give us the power to be worse than animals.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Do you really believe that, or is it a metaphor?
how do you feel about the evolutionary biologists who say that there is no need for an intelligent force or a creator for the emergence of intelligent life forms, and that it's the forces of evolution and natural selection which resulted in such life forms?

I don't separate creation and creator. Creator is as much the process as the result.

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

No... humans are no higher than any other living thing... we all walk with creators love. I believe I mentioned this already in this thread.

Why would we want to be better than everything else? We focus on being the best we can in our own lives, not being better than anyone else. If anything our abilities give us the power to be worse than animals.

wa:do

Do you think animals have a conscience? In other words, do animals experience the guilt that results from self disappointment?

 

[painted wolf]

Do you think animals have a conscience? In other words, do animals experience the guilt that results from self disappointment?

Yes, and there are lots of studies to support that. From chimps adopting orphans and exhibiting other forms of altruism... to elephants mourning their dead.

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

Yes, and there are lots of studies to support that. From chimps adopting orphans and exhibiting other forms of altruism... to elephants mourning their dead.

wa:do

Isn't preference determined by affection? And isn't mourning the result of loss. What does this have to do with a guilty conscience?

 

[painted wolf]

You asked about a conscience... altruism is an act that requires a conscience.

Other studies have shown that animals will avoid giving another an electric shock even it means they get food for doing so. Clearly causing pain to another causes a sense of guilt.

wa:do

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Isn't it true that different tribes have different beliefs, and they're not all Monotheistic? Some of them are more Polytheistic or Animistic? I know that when I lived in Michigan and went to some of the Ottawa pow wows and such they basically worshipped spirits of nature. Yes they believed in the Creator, but they also venerated spirits, animal spirits, and ancestral spirits. The tribes all have different beliefs yes?

 

[Danmac]

You asked about a conscience... altruism is an act that requires a conscience.

Other studies have shown that animals will avoid giving another an electric shock even it means they get food for doing so. Clearly causing pain to another causes a sense of guilt.

wa:do

Didn't Ted Bundy have a girlfriend that he cared about? btw. Do you have a link to that study. I find that interesting.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Also, when I was among the Ottawa, they seemed to hold animals as higher then humans, and humans as the lowest of all life. Is this also difference of belief between tribes?

 

[painted wolf]

Isn't it true that different tribes have different beliefs, and they're not all Monotheistic? Some of them are more Polytheistic or Animistic? I know that when I lived in Michigan and went to some of the Ottawa pow wows and such they basically worshipped spirits of nature. Yes they believed in the Creator, but they also venerated spirits, animal spirits, and ancestral spirits. The tribes all have different beliefs yes?

Each Nation has it's own faith... and being Animist is not contrary to being a Monotheist. I'm animist for example.
Veneration... or showing respect for animal and ancestral spirits is not the same as worshiping them.

Mayans and Aztec are good examples of polytheists.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Didn't Ted Bundy have a girlfriend that he cared about? btw.

I don't know.. but mass murders are a good example of humans acting worse than animals.

Do you have a link to that study. I find that interesting.

it's an old study, I don't know if the original is online anywhere.

wa:do

 

[painted wolf]

Also, when I was among the Ottawa, they seemed to hold animals as higher then humans, and humans as the lowest of all life. Is this also difference of belief between tribes?

I don't know about higher... but most see them as wiser.

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

I don't know.. but mass murders are a good example of humans acting worse than animals.

Do you think a wild lion could be tamed enough to make it a household pet?

it's an old study, I don't know if the original is online anywhere.

wa:do

That's odd.

 

[painted wolf]

Do you think a wild lion could be tamed enough to make it a household pet?

No... What does that have to do with my faith?

That's odd.

Not really. There are lots of scientific papers that are from before the internet.

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

Do you think a wild lion could be tamed enough to make it a household pet?

No... What does that have to do with my faith?

How is it that humans can be reformed, but wild lions can't? Why are humans different in that respect in your religion?

Not really. There are lots of scientific papers that are from before the internet.

wa:do

So in your religion, you don't have a problem believing things without a source? I know that is one of the things unbelievers point out, but I'm with you.

 

[Nepenthe]

...Other studies have shown that animals will avoid giving another an electric shock even it means they get food for doing so. Clearly causing pain to another causes a sense of guilt.

wa:do

Didn't Ted Bundy have a girlfriend that he cared about? btw. Do you have a link to that study. I find that interesting.

I believe PW is referring to the Masserman study in '64. A couple of rhesus monkeys actually chose to starve rather than electrocuting their fellow primates.
http://www.primatefreedom.com/masserman.pdf

There have been many other similar studies on altruism and non-human primates that have consistently demonstrated humans aren't the only animals with a conscience. Rather than stating "that's odd" or questioning a source why not just Google it? It's a very famous experiment and was the first hit when I Googled "primate altruism study".

 

[painted wolf]

How is it that humans can be reformed, but wild lions can't? Why are humans different in that respect in your religion?

How is domesticating a lion reforming it? My faith doesn't propose that animals exist for our benefit.

So in your religion, you don't have a problem believing things without a source? I know that is one of the things unbelievers point out, but I'm with you.

What?
Look if you want to track the paper down at your library here are two of the animal behavior experiments
Empathic learning of a passive-avoidance response in domesticated Rattus norvegicus

An experimental analysis of “empathic” response: Effects of pain reactions of pigeon upon other pigeon's operant behavior.

Have fun.

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

I believe PW is referring to the Masserman study in '64. A couple of rhesus monkeys actually chose to starve rather than electrocuting their fellow primates.
http://www.primatefreedom.com/masserman.pdf

There have been many other similar studies on altruism and non-human primates that have consistently demonstrated humans aren't the only animals with a conscience. Rather than stating "that's odd" or questioning a source why not just Google it? It's a very famous experiment and was the first hit when I Googled "primate altruism study".

I think you are confusing compassion with guilt.

 

[painted wolf]

I think you are confusing compassion with guilt.

You can't have one without the other. You don't have compassion without feeling guilty if you don't help.

wa:do