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Muslims, I Find This Really Offensive

As far as I know and almost sure, I don't. I'm open to any kind of questions tho. Feel free to ask anything, no matter what, and I'll take it with an open mind :)

Ehhm... I'm actually burning to know what you have in mind to ask :D



You do say some wise stuff from time to time ;)
I'd just like to point out all flocks of people from any race or ethnicity are welcome into asatru.

I was going to say, why do you as a man of European heritage subscribe to a desert cult over your beautiful and rich pagan history?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I'd just like to point out all flocks of people from any race or ethnicity are welcome into asatru.

I was going to say, why do you as a man of European heritage subscribe to a desert cult over your beautiful and rich pagan history?

That's an honorable belief in Asatru. I respect that.

I guess then the question does not apply to me. I'm a local Saudi Arabian of Hijazi descent. Nice to meet you.

I didn't think I'd be mistaken for a European. Does my way of conversing imply that?
 
Well, if it's okay to start the clock whenever we wish, then you can start Islam's calendar today and the numbers will much less... :p
I mean, you can reply with completely false and ignorant statements. If they make you feel better inside because you're not able to form a better argument based on facts. Don't expect someone like me to just scroll passed it.

Ok, as a pagan, It sucks that I have to defend Christianity. It literally makes my brain swell..

This is a link of all the terrorist attacks since the beginning of this year. All you have to do is click on each month and scroll down and your statement is destroyed. Simply it's that easy.. There's references for each attack.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2016
 
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That's an honorable belief in Asatru. I respect that.

I guess then the question does not apply to me. I'm a local Saudi Arabian of Hijazi descent. Nice to meet you.

I didn't think I'd be mistaken for a European. Does my way of conversing imply that?
You do have good English. I suspected, from your picture, you were from somewhere in the balkins.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You do say some wise stuff from time to time ;)
Yeah, I am not one of those people who say wise things every time they utter something. That distinction belongs to those guided by Gods. I am but an atheist. :D
You are a very nice guy. Why have you removed the likes? How do we show the appreciation of your posts?
Hijazi descent - your family has always been in Meccah?
BTW, I do not remember your having a green thumb earlier.
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Yeah, I am not one of those people who say wise things every time they utter something. That distinction belongs to those guided by Gods. I am but an atheist. :D
You are a very nice guy. Why have you removed the likes? How do we show the appreciation of your posts?
Hijazi descent - your family has always been in Meccah?
BTW, I do not remember your having a green thumb earlier.

A double post?

Ah, I don't know about removing any likes. Could be a bug from the latest RF update or something? No I see instead of "like" there are icons for rating, including a thumb up icon for a like just like the old system (I just tried it with your post). And thanks for the compliment :)

Yes, as far as I know and been told, my family always lived in Makkah. The only interruption I know of is when my father's grandfather moved to Turkey to learn pharmaceutics then came back later before even getting married. No idea how long that absence took or how things went before that. People do leave their homes for such things, and some don't even come back or come back after generations but still know where they are originally from, more or less.

That avatar always had that green thumb. It happens that things sometimes are not noticed until pointed at.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Oh, Smart_Guy. RF accepted my idea. I had written to them to show emotions in our likes or the measure. A little proud of it, but they never acknowledged my suggestion. :(
Anywho, I like the change.

Yes, the lore is remembered. For example in my family Kamboja, near Kabul; Saraswati River valley; then Kashmir, Rajasthan and Delhi. If I could connect you to some tribe of Mohammad's time - Ansar, Qureysh or one of the five feuding Medinan tribes? You must be knowing that, no? ;)
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Oh, Smart_Guy. RF accepted my idea. I had written to them to show emotions in our likes or the measure. A little proud of it, but they never acknowledged my suggestion. :(
Anywho, I like the change.

Yes, the lore is remembered. For example in my family Kamboja, near Kabul; Saraswati River valley; then Kashmir, Rajasthan and Delhi. If I could connect you to some tribe of Mohammad's time - Ansar, Qureysh or one of the five feuding Medinan tribes? You must be knowing that, no? ;)

Well, a change is a change. Now we can have a different feel and experience at least.

I know of Ansari (was an Arab tried in the old days of Islam in the Arabia peninsula according to history but I don't see any of them) and Qureyshi (the Arabs use Qurashi while I noticed the Indian use Qureyshi) tribes in India. According to my family, we go back to Qurashi, but family name changed according to specific conditions. Now it's just Ramadan, after my father's grandfather when he came back from Turkey. That's the extent of it that I know really. Never been interested in it to pursue further knowledge really.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
No, but the issue here is that evolution over time is normal, but that's not corruption. Also the Muslim argument is that the Torah and Gospel have been totally utterly corrupted, which is why they don't agree with Islam. But we have copies of the Gospel from before, during and after the 7th century and it is the same.

Not totally corrupted ... some parts. I think the biggest points of disagreement would be the interpretations (like the pork, the halal, the "death" of Jesus etc)
Muslims don't necessarely reject the verses but discuss about them and give another interpretation.

For exemple concerning the verse about the pork some christians say it allows to eat pork while muslims (and some chirstians too) would say no.
This is not a question of corruption here but interpretation. So you can't say muslims believe the whole Bible is corrupted.

For what i've read from the Gospel i think it's quite difficult to say what is corrupted or not (btw Paul is not conciderated as a disciple so not part of the Gospel for us) but it would be more a question of interpreatation (Jesus divinity, death etc).

While when you take the Old Testament it would be about the verses themselves not really/only the interpretations; things like the attitudes of some prophets or the stories that can be a little bit different. And then some verses not veven conciderated as true but completely rejected.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not totally corrupted ... some parts. I think the biggest points of disagreement would be the interpretations (like the pork, the halal, the "death" of Jesus etc)
Muslims don't necessarely reject the verses but discuss about them and give another interpretation.

For exemple concerning the verse about the pork some christians say it allows to eat pork while muslims (and some chirstians too) would say no.
This is not a question of corruption here but interpretation. So you can't say muslims believe the whole Bible is corrupted.

For what i've read from the Gospel i think it's quite difficult to say what is corrupted or not (btw Paul is not conciderated as a disciple so not part of the Gospel for us) but it would be more a question of interpreatation (Jesus divinity, death etc).

While when you take the Old Testament it would be about the verses themselves not really/only the interpretations; things like the attitudes of some prophets or the stories that can be a little bit different. And then some verses not veven conciderated as true but completely rejected.

Very thoughtful reply Pastek. "Disagreement of interpretation" sounds much better and inspiring of discussion than does "corrupted".
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
A Muslim can eat pork according to the Quran if it is out of necessity for example he's starving to death.

“He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swine flesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” (Qur'an 2:173).
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
A Muslim can eat pork according to the Quran if it is out of necessity for example he's starving to death.

“He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swine flesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful” (Qur'an 2:173).

Allow me to explain something to the readers:

I believe this is a general humane rule, a certain general Islamic rule tho, to allow what's not allowed. I believe it's common sense. Many verses with rules have such complementing details to them, not just this one. It wouldn't be fair for God to let us die with hunger if pork is the only choice there is.

However, that necessity should be valid. Just being suddenly hungry and wanting something to eat, for example, is not a valid necessity.
 
Now I know why there are seven heavens! One for each! :D

That's actually pretty true according to the Islamic narrative:


When he asked for the gate to be opened, it was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has Muhammad been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened, and when I went over the first heaven, I saw Adam there. Gabriel said (to me). 'This is your father, Adam; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious son and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me till we reached the second heaven. Gabriel asked for the gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel answered in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened.

When I went over the second heaven, there I saw Yahya (i.e. John) and 'Isa (i.e. Jesus) who were cousins of each other. Gabriel said (to me), 'These are John and Jesus; pay them your greetings.' So I greeted them and both of them returned my greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the third heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!' The gate was opened, and when I went over the third heaven there I saw Joseph. Gabriel said (to me), 'This is Joseph; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the fourth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!'

The gate was opened, and when I went over the fourth heaven, there I saw Idris. Gabriel said (to me), 'This is Idris; pay him your greetings.' So I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the fifth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked. 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed, what an excellent visit his is!' So when I went over the fifth heaven, there I saw Harun (i.e. Aaron), Gabriel said, (to me). This is Aaron; pay him your greetings.' I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the sixth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked,'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. It was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!'

When I went (over the sixth heaven), there I saw Moses. Gabriel said (to me),' This is Moses; pay him your greeting. So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' When I left him (i.e. Moses) he wept. Someone asked him, 'What makes you weep?' Moses said, 'I weep because after me there has been sent (as Prophet) a young man whose followers will enter Paradise in greater numbers than my followers.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the seventh heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked,' Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!'

So when I went (over the seventh heaven), there I saw Abraham. Gabriel said (to me), 'This is your father; pay your greetings to him.' So I greeted him and he returned the greetings to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious son and pious Prophet.' Then I was made to ascend to Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary) Behold! Its fruits were like the jars of Hajr (i.e. a place near Medina) and its leaves were as big as the ears of elephants. Gabriel said, 'This is the Lote Tree of the utmost boundary.' Behold! There ran four rivers; two were hidden and two were visible. I asked, 'What are these two kinds of rivers, O Gabriel?' He replied, 'As for the hidden rivers, they are two rivers in Paradise and the visible rivers are the Nile and the Euphrates.'
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Peace be on all.
Yes.
The following quotes indirectly and directly tell that Holy Prophet (pbuh) read and taught the current format of Holy Quran.
1= "Whenever any portion of the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet, he used to commit it to memory and, as he continuously recited the Quran from one end to the other, he always carried the whole of the revealed Quran at all times in his memory. In addition to this the following devices were adopted for safe-guarding and preserving intact the text of the Quran :....."
Ref: Page 355 @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf


Page 358
The Holy Prophet used to say : "Those of you who wish to learn the Quran should learn it from 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud, Salim Maula Abi Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal or Ubayy ibn Ka'b" (Muslim). These four had learnt the whole of the Quran under the supervision of the Holy Prophet.



2= "Once a year during the month of Ramadan (the Muslim month of fasting), the angel Gabriel would recite the entire revelation, revealed up to that time with the Prophet. During the last Ramadan, after the revelations had been completed, the angel recited the entire Quranic revelation to the Prophet twice.(3) This regular annual recitation was also meant to arrange the revelations in their present order."
Ref: https://www.alislam.org/library/links/00000054.html

But was the compilation and standardisation of the Qur'an in its current form(at) not completed until the time of Uthman's reign as Caliph (i.e. after the death of Muhammad (p))?
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Many a time he recited the same Quran as we find it today. Please
Regards

But was the compilation and standardisation of the Qur'an in its current form(at) not completed until the time of Uthman's reign as Caliph (i.e. after the death of Muhammad (p))?
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
But was the compilation and standardisation of the Qur'an in its current form(at) not completed until the time of Uthman's reign as Caliph (i.e. after the death of Muhammad (p))?
Peace be on you.....Holy Quran in its present form was being recited by Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Companions and was commited in memory by thousands...Based on it, a volume was made by First Khalifah Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a.)......The 3rd Khalifah Hazrat Uthman (r.a.) made a standerdized copy with certified enunciation....

DETAILS

""THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN
......
Thus we find that in the time of the Holy Prophet himself the Quran used to be recorded in writing, was committed to memory and was constantly recited and thousands of people knew the whole of it by heart, though it had not yet been collected in one volume.

THE QURAN COLLECTED IN ONE VOLUME

When it was found that five hundred of the reciters of the Quran had been killed in the battle with Musailima's army, 'Umar suggested to Abu Bakr (who was then the Khalifa) that if those who had the Quran by heart began to be lost in battles in such large numbers, the safe-guarding of the purity of its text would become difficult and that the time had therefore arrived when the whole of the Quran should be collected in one volume. Abu Bakr at first demurred but eventually accepted the suggestion and appointed Zaid bin Thabit, being one of those who used to record the Quran at the dictation of the Holy Prophet, to collect the text of the Quran in one volume and appointed prominent Companions of the Holy Prophet to assist him in the task. Abu Bakr directed that the text of the Quran should be collected from its recorded fragments and that the accuracy of the text should be certified by two persons who knew the whole of the Quran by heart. This task was soon accomplished and a written text of the whole of the Quran was got together in one volume, which was certified as accurate by those who knew it by heart. On the basis of these facts can there be the slightest ground for suggesting that variations in the text of the Quran had crept in between the death of the Holy Prophet and the compilation of the Quran into one volume under the directions of Abu Bakr and the supervision of Zaid bin Thabit ? Can it be reasonably suggested that any difficulty could arise in the compilation into one volume of a Book which was being continuously recited every day by large numbers of persons, the whole text of which used to be recited from beginning to end in the course of the month of Ramadan by persons who had committed it to memory to the Muslims assembled in congregational prayers, the congregation itself containing large numbers of people who knew the whole of it by heart, and which had been reduced to writing at the dictation of the Holy Prophet himself as the revelation was received from time to time ; more specially when the task of compilation was committed to the care of a person who was himself one of the recorders of the Quran and had committed the whole of it to memory ? Had the compiled volume contained a single variation from the text as dictated by the Holy Prophet and as committed to memory under his supervision by a large number of people, it would at once have been detected and set right. The authenticity and accuracy of the text of the Quran are thus established on the surest and most irrefutable evidence. The accuracy of the text of no other writing in the world is so far above the possibility of doubt as that of the Quran.


STANDARDIZED COPIES OF THE QURAN

During the time of 'Uthman complaints began to be received that different tribes enunciated certain words of the Quran in their own peculiar manner and that as a result of this nonMuslims who heard these words differently enunciated fell into the misconception that there were variations in the text of the Quran. It has already been explained that these variations were the result of tribal or family practice and had nothing whatsoever to do with any variation in the text nor did they affect the meaning of any word. Nevertheless, 'Uthman thought it wise to forbid all variations even of enunciation of vowel points. He had copies prepared of the text which had been collected in the time of Abu Bakr and despatched these copies into different parts of the Muslim dominions and issued a direction that no variation in the recitation of the Quran from the standard text, even if it was only in the matter of enunciation of vowel points, should be permitted..........................."

More @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

[from pages 362++}
 
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The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Peace be on you.....Holy Quran in its present form was being recited by Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Companions and was commited in memory by thousands...Based on it, a volume was made by First Khalifah Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a.)......The 3rd Khalifah Hazrat Uthman (r.a.) made a standerdized copy with certified enunciation....

DETAILS

""THE COMPILATION OF THE QURAN
......
Thus we find that in the time of the Holy Prophet himself the Quran used to be recorded in writing, was committed to memory and was constantly recited and thousands of people knew the whole of it by heart, though it had not yet been collected in one volume.

THE QURAN COLLECTED IN ONE VOLUME

When it was found that five hundred of the reciters of the Quran had been killed in the battle with Musailima's army, 'Umar suggested to Abu Bakr (who was then the Khalifa) that if those who had the Quran by heart began to be lost in battles in such large numbers, the safe-guarding of the purity of its text would become difficult and that the time had therefore arrived when the whole of the Quran should be collected in one volume. Abu Bakr at first demurred but eventually accepted the suggestion and appointed Zaid bin Thabit, being one of those who used to record the Quran at the dictation of the Holy Prophet, to collect the text of the Quran in one volume and appointed prominent Companions of the Holy Prophet to assist him in the task. Abu Bakr directed that the text of the Quran should be collected from its recorded fragments and that the accuracy of the text should be certified by two persons who knew the whole of the Quran by heart. This task was soon accomplished and a written text of the whole of the Quran was got together in one volume, which was certified as accurate by those who knew it by heart. On the basis of these facts can there be the slightest ground for suggesting that variations in the text of the Quran had crept in between the death of the Holy Prophet and the compilation of the Quran into one volume under the directions of Abu Bakr and the supervision of Zaid bin Thabit ? Can it be reasonably suggested that any difficulty could arise in the compilation into one volume of a Book which was being continuously recited every day by large numbers of persons, the whole text of which used to be recited from beginning to end in the course of the month of Ramadan by persons who had committed it to memory to the Muslims assembled in congregational prayers, the congregation itself containing large numbers of people who knew the whole of it by heart, and which had been reduced to writing at the dictation of the Holy Prophet himself as the revelation was received from time to time ; more specially when the task of compilation was committed to the care of a person who was himself one of the recorders of the Quran and had committed the whole of it to memory ? Had the compiled volume contained a single variation from the text as dictated by the Holy Prophet and as committed to memory under his supervision by a large number of people, it would at once have been detected and set right. The authenticity and accuracy of the text of the Quran are thus established on the surest and most irrefutable evidence. The accuracy of the text of no other writing in the world is so far above the possibility of doubt as that of the Quran.


STANDARDIZED COPIES OF THE QURAN

During the time of 'Uthman complaints began to be received that different tribes enunciated certain words of the Quran in their own peculiar manner and that as a result of this nonMuslims who heard these words differently enunciated fell into the misconception that there were variations in the text of the Quran. It has already been explained that these variations were the result of tribal or family practice and had nothing whatsoever to do with any variation in the text nor did they affect the meaning of any word. Nevertheless, 'Uthman thought it wise to forbid all variations even of enunciation of vowel points. He had copies prepared of the text which had been collected in the time of Abu Bakr and despatched these copies into different parts of the Muslim dominions and issued a direction that no variation in the recitation of the Quran from the standard text, even if it was only in the matter of enunciation of vowel points, should be permitted..........................."

More @ https://www.alislam.org/library/books/Introduction-Study-Holy-Quran.pdf

[from pages 362++}

So there were multiple versions of the Qur'an around after the death of Muhammad (p), and Uthman standardised the Qur'an, forbidding all variations (no matter what the variation)...On this basis, I don't see how Muhammad (p) could have read the Uthmani version of the Qur'an...
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
So there were multiple versions of the Qur'an around after the death of Muhammad (p), and Uthman standardised the Qur'an, forbidding all variations (no matter what the variation)...On this basis, I don't see how Muhammad (p) could have read the Uthmani version of the Qur'an...
Peace be on you.
Have you heard different ways of speaking certain words in English spoken by people in south of USA and north of it, and in flat lands.....Then there are differences of uttering same words spoken in United Kingdom and same words spoken in USA.

So the difference we are talking is of that order.

1=Holy Prophet recited Quran in a specific dialect.
2=He taught it to thousands of people near him in same way who continued to recite it like that. That was mode of time and era.
3=The first Khalifah of early Islam Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a.) made a written volume of this well-known recitation which was in same order as we have today.
4=Islam was spreading, Arabs spoke certain words in certain ways[there were many forms of dialects], so The 3rd Khalifah Hazrat Uthman (r.a.) called the people of time of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and the way Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) recited, was declared as the standard. It was the Just. Hazrat Uthman did not do anything new, he wiped away the little variations in spoken words.

The Qureshi-dialect was the original. It was restored.

I think there is nothing difficult at all in this matter to get.

By the grace of Allah the Exalted, we have the same text of Holy Quran which Holy Prophet (pbuh) received from Allah.

Various aspects @ https://www.alislam.org/quran/
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Peace be on you.
Have you heard different ways of speaking certain words in English spoken by people in south of USA and north of it, and in flat lands.....Then there are differences of uttering same words spoken in United Kingdom and same words spoken in USA.

So the difference we are talking is of that order.

1=Holy Prophet recited Quran in a specific dialect.
2=He taught it to thousands of people near him in same way who continued to recite it like that. That was mode of time and era.
3=The first Khalifah of early Islam Hazrat Abu Bakr (r.a.) made a written volume of this well-known recitation which was in same order as we have today.
4=Islam was spreading, Arabs spoke certain words in certain ways[there were many forms of dialects], so The 3rd Khalifah Hazrat Uthman (r.a.) called the people of time of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and the way Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) recited, was declared as the standard. It was the Just. Hazrat Uthman did not do anything new, he wiped away the little variations in spoken words.

The Qureshi-dialect was the original. It was restored.

I think there is nothing difficult at all in this matter to get.

By the grace of Allah the Exalted, we have the same text of Holy Quran which Holy Prophet (pbuh) received from Allah.

Various aspects @ https://www.alislam.org/quran/

And the evidence that Muhammad's Qur'an was the same as Abu Bakr's Qur'an which was the same as Uthman's Qur'an (barring some minor variations)?
 
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