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Muslims, I Find This Really Offensive

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That was written very elequantly but you're still basically just saying "Yes the Quran does say this, but it was only applied more often in the past" Now that you realize your religious doctrine can be taken and manipulated for any interpretation you should understand that there is no true interpretation and therefore the whole entire ideology is worthless.

Unfortunately Islam has been corrupted by hadiths and there is no appointed interpreter or central authority to correct the situation.

A website even gives quotes from the Quran showing where hadiths are not acceptable.

http://submission.org/Corruption_of_Religion.html

The Hadith can be seen as a false idol which Muslims now worship above the Quran. Hundreds of thousands of hadiths have already been proved false, how many more in circulation which are accepted today will be tomorrow thrown out and will likely be in the hundreds of thousands more.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Too kind sirs :tophat:

Am quite surprised more than 1 person bothers to read some of my posts...




Just something else from the source I mentioned previously:

The Qur’ān’s complex manipulation of the Aramaic Gospel Traditions is,
furthermore, neither accidental nor haphazard. It is rather, quite deliberate and
sophisticated. It wood behoove readers to realize a basic fact concerning dogmatic
re-articulation as we have laid it out herein, namely that the Qur’ān excercises
complete control over its challenging or re-appropriation of passages from the
Aramaic Gospels—not vice versa. This is evident both implicitly and explicitly
within the text... Finally, consider that the text skillfully translates or interprets
Hebrew and Aramaic terminology and seamlessly integrates them into the overall
literary, rhetorical, and theological coherence of the particular passage or Surah
wherin they occur, which is the unmistakable intention behind zakariyyā in Q 19:2
and s.arrah in Q 51:29 for example.

Dispensing with hasty and superficial readings of the text—which may incorrectly
yield ‘mistakes’ or ‘contraditions’ in the qur’ānic re-telling of Biblical narratives
or post-Biblical controversies—is the first step in truly appreciating its
linguistic, structural, and thematic integrity... The point is that such a dexterous command
of Biblical and post-Biblical literature as a whole, and such strong volition on the
part of the Qur’ān’s authorship, is central to our understanding of its dogmatic rearticulation
of the Aramaic Gospels Tradition. (The Quran and the Aramaic Gospel Traditions)

As I mentioned I can't recommend pp1-48 of this text enough for anyone with even the slightest interest in Early Islam. You can probably read the first 30 or so pages on Google books here. It's basically a literature review of 200+ sources and is a fantastic overview of scholarship. I can't think of a better 48 pages I've read.

Another interesting (and much shorter) article is Reading the Quran through the Bible [here] which convincingly shows how the audience must have been fully familiar with the Biblical narratives (and that many later Muslim exegetes didn't understand their own text because they were unfamiliar with the Bible and were forced to speculate wildly):

Another case is the Qur’an’s reference to the laughter of Sarah (a name that does not appear in the text; the only woman given a name in the Qur’an is Mary). In Genesis, Sarah laughs after she hears the annunciation of Isaac’s birth, but the Qur’an refers to her laughter first. Accordingly, Muslim commentators struggle to explain why she laughed. One famous commentator, the tenth-century al-Tabari, wonders if she laughed out of frustration when the visitors would not eat the food she prepared or if she laughed out of relief when she realized that the visitors did not have the habits of the Sodomites. Yet the reader who knows the Bible will understand that Sarah laughed out of surprise at the promise of a son in her old age, even if the Qur’an—for the sake of a rhyme in Arabic—reports these events in reverse order.

In such cases the Qur’an seems to count on its audience’s knowledge of the Bible. Indeed, by taking a liberty with the order of the story, the Qur’an seems utterly confident in that knowledge. It expects that the reader has the Qur’an in one hand and the Bible in the other.

This presupposition of audience knowledge is hard to reconcile with the traditional 'pagan backwater' narrative.
I more or less read through all 30 pages available as well as the other sources you've linked here.

My understanding is that the author of the Qur'an was familiar with the Biblical texts of his region and actually intended to present a side in debates of the time between Christians and other minority sects, perhaps to present a unifying interpretation of Biblical text under which all sides could unite. References to distored events and stories in the Tanach and NT could be understood as re-interpretive stance on the text intended to contrast against competing interpretations by those sects. There are also elements that may have been intended to present the Biblical stories in a manner that was more familiar to the native population.

There are also polemics for and against Christians reflecting the Qur'ans original intent to absorb Christianity or perhaps emerge as a dominant form of Christianity and as result of failure, its attempt to divorce itself from them. There are also polemics against Judaism (but not for) which might be an artifact of the initial desire to present itself as an emergent Christian religion, that transferred over when the Jews refused to follow as well. Concepts such as the Jews believing Ezra to be a son of G-d, might fall into this category of polemic, rather than a misunderstanding of Jewish theology.

I think there was something else. But after I wrote this, I had to log in again and lost my original post in the process. But how's this?
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
I personally don't think it is GODDAMN offensive, just as some Christians think Muslims are GODDAMN terrorists is not offensive to me. Same also like the many beliefs Christians have in the identity of Jesus; e.g. God, Son of God, three in one, etc., which is supposedly offensive to Muslims, specially the Son of God part, but I don't take it offensively. There is also the part that some Christians believe the Quran is a whole lie, let alone just thinking it is corrupted!

It's just a GODDAMN belief. Get the GODDAMN over it :p

You don't need to get angry because of some theoretical beliefs. Really, get over it!

I forgot... being corrupted does not mean having been always corrupted. Islam believes in them before they were corrupted.

It's just a belief. I'm not trying to impose it on others. Why so serious?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
I forgot... being corrupted does not mean having been always corrupted. Islam believes in them before they were corrupted.
But why use them to make arguments in favour of Islam if you believe they are corrupted? And could you show me some secular evidence of corruption? We have copies of the Gospel from before the 7thC. and they are the same as those which come after.

I just fail to understand why one would go to a so-called corrupt text to prove one's belief. It is logically incoherent.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
How is this foolish in anyway? Nobody takes a Christian seriously today, the numbers are in steep decline while Islam is destroying everyone and itself. Christians think using Christianity as a wall against Islam is the answer lmao. It's histeracle to see the desperation to keep people in faith. Your ideology can no longer be used with force, those days are over and people have become civilized.

If we ignore some seemingly inappropriate specific implications here, I'm afraid you do have some good points here. I partially agree with you even tho I'm Muslim.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
But why use them to make arguments in favour of Islam if you believe they are corrupted? And could you show me some secular evidence of corruption? We have copies of the Gospel from before the 7thC. and they are the same as those which come after.

I just fail to understand why one would go to a so-called corrupt text to prove one's belief. It is logically incoherent.

It's just a belief, Rival. I don't take similar beliefs against Islam that badly and don't get angry over them. Let people use whatever arguments they want. I don't see a problem with that!

It as as mentioned by other members before, Islam takes what is not conflicting with it from today's Christianity and Judaism, and Islam believes that the three Abrahamic religions supersede each other.

But anyway those are beliefs. I don't see why would they be taken offensively! All of the three religions do the same to each other all over anyway. I understand why some non Abrahamics would feel bad, but why would Christians, if they are in the same boat? We need to get along here and don't let different beliefs cause such tensions. We must stick together and consider the common threat... atheists! (That was a joke, by the way :p)
 
My understanding is that the author of the Qur'an was familiar with the Biblical texts of his region

I think it is fair that both the author and the intended audience were familiar. Whether this was from physical texts, or he was simply learned is a bit more speculative. My (far from expert) opinion is that the latter is more likely due to the diversity of the 'sources' and that lack of focus on a single one.

Others have an opinion that there was an ur-'Quran' which predates Muhammed although I'm not massively convinced on this

and actually intended to present a side in debates of the time between Christians and other minority sects, perhaps to present a unifying interpretation of Biblical text under which all sides could unite.

This is where it starts getting more speculative. There are lots of arguments that make sense, only for someone else to find fault with them in a way that makes sense also. These arguments get difficult to evaluate for a non-specialist.

If Christianity emerged from Hellenised Judaism, then the analogue would be Islam emerging from Syriac Christianity, at least imo. What constitutes 'emerged from' is very contentious though.

Islam seemed to take the best part of a century before it became noticeably 'Islamic'. 'Believers' and 'emigrants' became 'Muslims', and dedications to God started to include the name Muhammad as well. Saying this, it was probably a distinct movement rather than just another form of Christianity.

There is a good case to be made that it was eschatological in nature and expected the 'hour' to be imminent.

References to distored events and stories in the Tanach and NT could be understood as re-interpretive stance on the text intended to contrast against competing interpretations by those sects. There are also elements that may have been intended to present the Biblical stories in a manner that was more familiar to the native population.

There are also polemics for and against Christians reflecting the Qur'ans original intent to absorb Christianity or perhaps emerge as a dominant form of Christianity and as result of failure, its attempt to divorce itself from them. There are also polemics against Judaism (but not for) which might be an artifact of the initial desire to present itself as an emergent Christian religion, that transferred over when the Jews refused to follow as well. Concepts such as the Jews believing Ezra to be a son of G-d, might fall into this category of polemic, rather than a misunderstanding of Jewish theology.

It certainly reads like a work of rhetoric (in the 'using language effectively to persuade' sense of the word.) Some people try to find the source of such 'discrepancies' in specific sects who harboured such beliefs which is plausible (but unpersuasive to me). I think they are more likely rhetorical flourishes reflecting more mainstream theological issues of the era though.

As I said before though, I'd say it was more something that emerged from an Arabised Syriac Christian tradition, rather than being simply a form of Syriac Christianity.

Ultimately it becomes hard to be particularly confident about the specifics and there are plenty of plausible hypotheses. I quite often change my mind or revise my opinions after reading new sources and might well be wrong about many things for all I know (although I'm pretty confident the pagan narrative is wrong). I just find it interesting.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And...? You know damn well that comparing the two is pointless.. The numbers don't even come close. Islam commits pretty much 99.99 percent of the world's terror attacks.
I'd say that it isn't as skewed as that. The Muslim terrorists just get more media coverage in the west.

Also, it comes in waves. I remember when it was Christians blowing up Christians in Northern Ireland. More recently in Sri Lanka, we had Buddhists shelling a hospital while the Hindu rebels inside used the patients as human shields. The worst terrorist attack in the history of my country (Canada) was committed by Sikh extremists.

Islam gets the attention now, but from where I sit, it's religion in general that's the problem.

Edit: also, I think it's fairly easy for western Christians to lump Boko Haram in with all of Islam while simultaneously dismissing the Lord's Resistance Army as not representative of their beliefs.
 
I'd say that it isn't as skewed as that. The Muslim terrorists just get more media coverage in the west.

Also, it comes in waves. I remember when it was Christians blowing up Christians in Northern Ireland. More recently in Sri Lanka, we had Buddhists shelling a hospital while the Hindu rebels inside used the patients as human shields. The worst terrorist attack in the history of my country (Canada) was committed by Sikh extremists.

Islam gets the attention now, but from where I sit, it's religion in general that's the problem.

Edit: also, I think it's fairly easy for western Christians to lump Boko Haram in with all of Islam while simultaneously dismissing the Lord's Resistance Army as not representative of their beliefs.
Isn't as skewed? Start from the beginning of this year and scroll down the list and count how many of the attacks are Islamic related.. It's staggering. You look up 2015,2014,2013 etc.. And you will find the sam statistics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2016
 
It's just a belief, Rival. I don't take similar beliefs against Islam that badly and don't get angry over them. Let people use whatever arguments they want. I don't see a problem with that!

It as as mentioned by other members before, Islam takes what is not conflicting with it from today's Christianity and Judaism, and Islam believes that the three Abrahamic religions supersede each other.

But anyway those are beliefs. I don't see why would they be taken offensively! All of the three religions do the same to each other all over anyway. I understand why some non Abrahamics would feel bad, but why would Christians, if they are in the same boat? We need to get along here and don't let different beliefs cause such tensions. We must stick together and consider the common threat... atheists! (That was a joke, by the way :p)
Im curious, do you have any European heritage? If so I'd like to ask a follow up question if that's ok, thank you.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I'd say that it isn't as skewed as that. The Muslim terrorists just get more media coverage in the west.

Also, it comes in waves. I remember when it was Christians blowing up Christians in Northern Ireland. More recently in Sri Lanka, we had Buddhists shelling a hospital while the Hindu rebels inside used the patients as human shields. The worst terrorist attack in the history of my country (Canada) was committed by Sikh extremists.

Islam gets the attention now, but from where I sit, it's religion in general that's the problem.

Edit: also, I think it's fairly easy for western Christians to lump Boko Haram in with all of Islam while simultaneously dismissing the Lord's Resistance Army as not representative of their beliefs.

You bring up some very valid points. If religion becomes a source of hatred and bloodshed it is better we are without it.

Religion should care about people and bring peace and love between others. If it causes harm it's better to abandon it altogether.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
@Augustus , nice posts. All Abrahamic religions apart from Judaism have done that. Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. One became son, the other became a messenger. You see positions once taken cannot be reused. So Joseph Smith became a saint, Bahaullah became a manifesttion and Mirza ji became a returning messiah. More will come in time. Recently there was one member 'God Ahmad' who had some ideas. Before that, there was another, I suppose all from Pakistan (by the way they wrote). I think God will send his next message to some one in Pakistan only.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
@Augustus , nice posts. All Abrahamic religions apart from Judaism have done that. Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaullah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. One became son, the other became a messenger. You see positions once taken cannot be reused. So Joseph Smith became a saint, Bahaullah became a manifesttion and Mirza ji became a returning messiah. More will come in time. Recently there was one member 'God Ahmad' who had some ideas. Before that, there was another, I suppose all from Pakistan. I think God will send his next message to some one in Pakistan only.
Now I know why there are seven heavens! One for each! :D
 
Unfortunately Islam has been corrupted by hadiths and there is no appointed interpreter or central authority to correct the situation.

A website even gives quotes from the Quran showing where hadiths are not acceptable.

http://submission.org/Corruption_of_Religion.html

The Hadith can be seen as a false idol which Muslims now worship above the Quran. Hundreds of thousands of hadiths have already been proved false, how many more in circulation which are accepted today will be tomorrow thrown out and will likely be in the hundreds of thousands more.
Which is exactly why the whole ideology should be done away with and should be seen as a history lesson... The second age of enlightenment is on the rise anyways, paganism is finally on the rise after 1600 years of Abraham oppression. Now we can focus on evolution, occultism, and philosophy from a pagan perspective without being murdered. The age of taking things by force like during the inquisitions is over.
 
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Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
Im curious, do you have any European heritage? If so I'd like to ask a follow up question if that's ok, thank you.

As far as I know and almost sure, I don't. I'm open to any kind of questions tho. Feel free to ask anything, no matter what, and I'll take it with an open mind :)

Ehhm... I'm actually burning to know what you have in mind to ask :D

Oh yes, God has to reward his loyal servants/slaves.

You do say some wise stuff from time to time ;)
 
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