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You're no Christian

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Sonny

Active Member
I already provided two justifications for this, with one being what Jesus told the apostles about their power of binding and loosening of sins, and also how the 2nd century church reacted to this. Meanwhile, you have provided nothing, and you also contradicted yourself with the part of your post that I underlined above because obviously the apostles also had this power according to scripture.

To be clear, I am not saying that the RCC is correct on this article of theology, only that this is where their practice is from. If you don't accept their interpretation and logic, fine-- neither do I, but for a different reason.

So, I guess we've completed this discussion.
I don't think the Apostles forgave anyone of their sins against God. I have been hurt and haven't read my Bible, until recently, for a long time. But I am also heavily medicated these days so I may have forgotten said passages. but it doesn't sound right.
 

Sonny

Active Member
I posted that the Bible prophesied Alexander, the Great. I apologize to him/her I said I'd post it then I forgot. But it is in Ezekiel 26 and Jeremiah 51. Here it is,

The Biblical City of Tyre.

First, let me say this, there are other stories like this one in the Bible. Because folks don't know about them they tend to think the Bible is a man-made or error-filled book. The Bible cannot be God's word and have false prophecies, changed doctrines or failed revelations in it. It is either a full-blown lie or it is the word of Almighty God. There are no other options and only one of these two can be true.

First, let's examine some other so-called great religious leaders. Buddha, Confucius and Lao-tse (the great leader of Taoism [pronounced Dow-ism] which means 'The Way'). None of them ever gave a single example of predicted prophecy. Muhammad said that he would return to Mecca on the Last Day- a self-fulfilling one that cannot be tested.

Another self-described prophet (psychic) is Jeanne Dixon. She, like Joseph Smith, gave many predictions. Let’s see about hers (I use her as an example to Mormons because if they believe JS with no proof of Divine calling (only a deep-seated ‘feeling’ that he was a prophet) then they should certainly trust in Jeanne as a true prophet).

Jeanne gave predictions in three presidential elections- 1952, 56, 60. She said who the candidates would be and for each party and who would win all three elections. How do you think she did? Jeanne Dixon missed all the candidates, all the parties and all the presidential winners.
Ok, for the Bible. But this comment first, a well-known historian once said that historians know how difficult it is to predict the future because the wheels of the future turn on so many “ifs”.

One would think, naturally in that case, that the Bible’s writers would be hesitant to predict anything. Unless, of course, it was God doing the ‘predicting’. The Old Testament, alone, gives 2,000 predictive prophecies. The prophecies of the Bible are different from all the others in that they are specific and detailed.

Someone must have really thought folks would either forget about them in time (if they were guessing) or He knew He was right. Also, the Bible’s prophecies must also be fulfilled exactly as predicted! In fact, all prophecies and revelations coming from God must or they are not from God…people’s feelings notwithstanding.

Prophecies from God- if they are from God- cannot be considered as good guesses, either, because most are concerned with things that had no likelihood of ever coming to pass. They could not have been written after the event had taken place because in hundreds of predictions they were not fulfilled until hundreds of years after the prophet had died. Some did not come true until after the Old Testament was translated into Greek in 250 BC. We know of some 2,000 fulfilled prophecies from the Bible.

Here, then, are two comparative examples for you to consider- Tyre and Sidon (there are many more such examples- Edom, Babylon, Samaria, Jerusalem- but this one (Tyre) should convince all but the most seared conscience that the Bible IS the only Word of Almighty God and is provably true (if we would simply research the Bible thoroughly).

The details are out there to be found and are probably online somewhere so I won’t go into the added length of the story for them. But you should read about them so you can see that the Bible is from a source, God, that is impossible to deny, totally reliable and absolutely irrefutable as to the facts of history. They are true beyond man’s ability or comprehension.

For this proof that the Bible is true and from God the Cities of Tyre and Sidon (briefly and only for a comparison to Tyre) are mentioned.

Tyre and Sidon were great cities on the eastern Mediterranean coast. At the height of its power and prestige the O.T. prophet declared the city would be destroyed and never rebuilt or inhabited again… ever (Eze. 26:19-21).

That is like saying “America will be destroyed and never rebuilt or inhabited again” right after WWII. That would have been laughable even preposterous to think. But God said it about Tyre and we have the benefit of history to check God’s words against reality.

Sidon was also warned by God (the comparison). But while God told them they would be decimated He also said the city would continue to exist. History tells us their own king betrayed them and 40,000 died but the city is still with us to this day.

What about Tyre? Well, here are some specific prophecies about it. Ezekiel said this about Tyre when it was at its zenith,

“And they shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken, says the Lord God… And they will lay your stones and your timber and your dust (soil) in the midst of the water… And I will make you like the top of a rock…and you shall never be rebuilt, for I the Lord have spoken, says the Lord God.” (Eze. 26:4, 5, 12-14).

That is what we call being as specific as it gets. Can we trust the Bible? (Is it true or as the LDS church likes to say (repeatedly and without any substance of fact), is it error-filled, faulty, been mutilated by Christians, undependable and untrue? Let’s see the reality of history and God’s word.

Not long after this prophecy was given King Nebuchadnezzar came to visit Tyre. For 13 years Tyre staved off his army. But the walls of the city finally crumbled and the Babylonian army poured into the city and killed those inside. And the plot thickens….

Remember how God said, “And they will lay your stones and your timber and your dust (soil) in the midst of the water”? Aha, someone will say, Tyre was on the shoreline (dry land) so how can that part come true? I thought you would never ask. Thousands had escaped the city by boat and set up a new Tyre on an island about a half mile out. So, did the prophecy fail? Not at all- you know my God never fails.

Two hundred and fifty years went by- and yep, old Ezekiel was long gone and surely rotten to the core and way passed stinking by then (so he could not have written this prophecy ‘after the fact’ or known what God had intended when he wrote it)- and most of the walls of Tyre was still standing. Undoubtedly, millions of tons of stones, timber, and rubble and, of course, dirt were still where it had always been.

It would seem that the O.T. God was wrong…had lied. He did say, “I the Lord have spoken it.” Remember? Keep in mind, God didn’t set a specific date or a specific king/nation to destroy Tyre. He said He would do it in a very precise way (not time) and that is the point here. In God’s defense, He also said, “I…will cause many nations to come up against you” (26:3).

[The Greek army was comprised of soldiers from all of the countries Alexander had defeated. Thus “many nations” did go against Tyre, as well as the Babylonians before them.]

Then one day a mighty and valiant young man rode into the view of the eastern Mediterranean horizon with a new army. They called him Alexander, the 3rd- later, the Great. He defeated all comers one after the other even the great Persian army and navy fell before his powerful and overwhelming onslaught. Many cities after hearing what he had done to others simply surrendered at his amazing presence.

Then he came to new Tyre with its massive walls and a half mile out in the Mediterranean. He commanded them as he did the others to surrender. They laughed and mocked him and refused his commands. Alexander, a man, a soldier and a great leader who was as determined as any in the history of the world- before or since- devised a plan with his engineer that the world had never heard of or seen before.

God words ring true! Alexander began building a causeway (road/bridge) a half mile long into the Mediterranean Sea to the island of Tyre. But what would they use for such an enormous undertaking? Where would one find the materials needed to support an entire army, their supplies, the materials themselves, food, equipment and their weapons? Alexander commanded them to tear down the walls of old Tyre, take its timbers, stones, rubble and yes, the dirt and build the road. Alexander unknowingly fulfilled god’s words…to the letter!!

A side note about the story. Tyre was concerned (wouldn’t you be) but not scared- not yet- and they succeeded in burning up Alexander’s road (made of wood on top of dirt, rocks and rubble). Not one to accept defeat Alexander rebuilt the road. This time, however- having learned some hard lessons (I believe history has recorded it as taking about 6 months to rebuild), things turned out differently. The Greeks took Tyre, destroyed it and leveled it. There is no city where the original Tyre once stood. In fact, they use the place for fishing- they spread their nets over the ground to dry, just as God said (26:5).

I ask the anti-Christians, pseudo-Christian groups and the atheists to show evidence this didn't happen precisely as God prophesied. If it did occur as stated (it did) why would you not believe the Bible now that you see it does have a supernatural God who can see the future and direct it according to His plans for it? Jesus loves all of us. He proves He is God by saying then doing these things. No other book has these in such detail and truth.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus Christ (not his real name) is the Word of God which lives.
The Bible is a collection of books. Heads up! Books do not live.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Holy Spirit, which Christ sends, can make words live for the reader, but they can't live on their own.
 

Valerian

Member
Not trying to be argumentative but, doesn't Catholicism teach that IT is the only right and true church?
Oh I am certain that has been proffered and written about in a myriad of ways. There is only One Church established by Jesus Christ. It can only be the one from the beginning with Peter as the first head of the Church. The very reason Jesus gave the Church to rule on matters and “whatsoever you hold bound on earth shall be held in heaven.” It was necessary to create unity and repel heresy.

I believe we all, individually and in religion, judge people. To me, it's the standard we use to judge that is important. The standard I use is truth. Did they say it? Is it true? These determine our judgment.
Well without getting too much into this there are different meanings for how the word ‘judge’ is used. Yes, we can judge something to be a sin, such as adultery or stealing. But what we are forbidden to do is to judge the culpability of a person or to judge that person as worthy of hell. This is forbidden and for obvious reasons to those who have a proper understanding of that which is left for God alone.
 
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psychoslice

Veteran Member
Got any proof of that?
Yes the old testament, what seems to be a prophecy, is simply written into the new testament so s to let the story flow, its all a story, with metaphor's behind them which I see nothing wrong in, but sadly most take the stories literal, and so we have so many branches all believing they have the truth, and know how the story should go, just as you believe your story is the right one.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Cute! Do you have one for the Greek?

Matthew 1:17

So all the generations from Abraham to David totaled fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon totaled fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah there were fourteen generations.

Luke 1:50
His mercy lasts from generation to generation for those who fear him.

Acts 14:16
In past generations he allowed all the nations to go their own ways,

Ephesians 3:5
which in previous generations was not made known to human beings as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This is that secret:


.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David totaled fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon totaled fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah there were fourteen generations.

Luke 1:50
His mercy lasts from generation to generation for those who fear him.

Acts 14:16
In past generations he allowed all the nations to go their own ways,

Ephesians 3:5
which in previous generations was not made known to human beings as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This is that secret:


.
Matthew 24:34 says "this" generation. If anyone else said it I would have to agree that it means the life time of a certain group of people on the Earth, but it is written that Jesus said it. Even though he was killed and was dead for three days, he lives. The generation HE refers to are the people who are for God's will be done in his name.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The generation that is with Jesus will not pass away until all things of God are fulfilled.
It means there will always be people for God's Name and when God's Name is known by all, the generation for it will cease because it is done.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The generation that is with Jesus will not pass away until all things of God are fulfilled.
It means there will always be people for God's Name and when God's Name is known by all, the generation for it will cease because it is done.
One means that no generation has passed since then?:

"But just how long is a generation? Don’t we all know as a matter of common knowledge that it generally averages about 25 years from the birth of a parent to the birth of a child, even though it varies case by case? And wasn’t it closer to 20 years in earlier times when humans mated younger and life expectancies were shorter? Where did those numbers come from?

Several recent studies by a sociologist-demographer and groups of population geneticists and biological anthropologists show that male-line generations, from father to son, are always longer on average than female-line generations, from mother to daughter. They show, too, that both are longer than the 25-year interval that conventional wisdom has assigned to a generation. The male generation is at least a third longer, the female generation is longer by perhaps half that amount.

In genealogy, the length of a generation in the past has been used principally as a check on the credibility of evidence — too long a span between parent and child, especially in a maternal line, has been reason to go back and take a more careful look at whether the received information reflects the actual reality, or whether a generation has been omitted or data for two different individuals attributed to the same person. For that purpose, the accepted 25-year average has worked quite acceptably, and birth dates too far out of line with it are properly suspect."
Please
Regards
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I posted that the Bible prophesied Alexander, the Great. I apologize to him/her I said I'd post it then I forgot. But it is in Ezekiel 26 and Jeremiah 51. Here it is,

The Biblical City of Tyre...
Very interesting treatise on Ezekiel's prophecy regarding Tyre, Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander...there is only one slight problem - the oldest surviving copies of any portions of Ezekiel at all are in the Dead Sea Scrolls (I'm not sure if these include Ch 26 or not but if not then the oldest copies of that are even later) and these date almost certainly no later than the mid 3rd century BC* - a hundred years after Alexander's death and centuries after Nebuchadnezzar. Of course you can choose to believe that it was really written in advance of the events it describes, but there is absolutely no archaeological evidence that this is the case.

LATE EDIT:
* I checked a bit closer and it seems that the Ezekiel scrolls that have been clearly identified consist of just a few verses from Chapters 1,4,5,10,13, 16 and 23 and a bit of the temple vision stuff from Ch 41 - so nothing about Tyre or Alexander etc. and the ones (Dead Sea scrolls of Ezekiel) that have been dated are from the Herodian period i.e. 1st century BC - 1st century AD.

To my estimation, that means there are probably no extant copies of the Tyre prophecy that date to any earlier than the 4th century AD (anybody know better?) - 600 years after Alexander. Of course that does not prove they are not accurate copies of what Ezekiel really recorded close to 1000 years earlier - but it certainly doesn't prove that they are!
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One means that no generation has passed since then?:

"But just how long is a generation? Don’t we all know as a matter of common knowledge that it generally averages about 25 years from the birth of a parent to the birth of a child, even though it varies case by case? And wasn’t it closer to 20 years in earlier times when humans mated younger and life expectancies were shorter? Where did those numbers come from?

Several recent studies by a sociologist-demographer and groups of population geneticists and biological anthropologists show that male-line generations, from father to son, are always longer on average than female-line generations, from mother to daughter. They show, too, that both are longer than the 25-year interval that conventional wisdom has assigned to a generation. The male generation is at least a third longer, the female generation is longer by perhaps half that amount.

In genealogy, the length of a generation in the past has been used principally as a check on the credibility of evidence — too long a span between parent and child, especially in a maternal line, has been reason to go back and take a more careful look at whether the received information reflects the actual reality, or whether a generation has been omitted or data for two different individuals attributed to the same person. For that purpose, the accepted 25-year average has worked quite acceptably, and birth dates too far out of line with it are properly suspect."
Please
Regards
I understand what generation means to people. I also understand that God does not see things as people do.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why not look outside the box? If Matthew 24:34 really means what you all say it means why didn't he use the correct pronoun, "your"? Or can "this" mean "your" also? He could not have said "MY" generation because that would have contradicted what else he might have really said which is, "the truth will set you free".

But I think MY is what he meant. The generation for me will not pass away until all things of God are accomplished. Matthew 24:34

When God's will is accomplished will there be people for accomplishing it? There shouldn't be.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Mark is consistent with the other gospels on the tomb part.
Actually if you put the four gospel tomb-narratives side by side, none of them match. How many angels there are (1 v 2), where he/they are located (inside/outside), what the angel(s) say, and what the women do immediately afterword varies from gospel to gospel.

If you don't believe me, put them side by side and look for yourself.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't think the Apostles forgave anyone of their sins against God. I have been hurt and haven't read my Bible, until recently, for a long time. But I am also heavily medicated these days so I may have forgotten said passages. but it doesn't sound right.
Hopefully you feel better and soon.

Take care.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Absolutely false, and all you are doing is inventing your own "theology".

I can forgive sins against me. So can you forgive sins against you. So can a priest or minister or rabbi in the context of the community that (s)he represents. It's unfortunate that you only see the issue of sin as being between the individual person and God when clearly more is at stake.

I think we agree but are using different words for the same thing. Yes, all of us can forgive wrongs done to or against us. But wrongs are not sin, necessarily. If it violates God's word then it is sin. The Bible clearly defines what sin is, it is doing something God said don't do or not doing something God said we should do. Sin, then, is going against God. So, if two people are dating steadily and one goes out with someone else that act is a wrong done to the other person but there is no sin in that. These are the types of things you are saying is sin, but they aren't sin bc they don't go against God. That wouldn't be sin to God until they were married. Then, it is sin, adultery.
My theology comes from the Bible. Show us where the Bible teaches humans can forgive sin. I've asked this before but it was ignored, for obvious reasons, it isn't in the Bible. If you can provide a verse or two it will end the debate instantly. It can't be done, that's why you didn't do it.
 

Sonny

Active Member
Some Pentecostals, for instance.

Mormons have different views on the Trinity/Godhead than most other denominations, though I'm not sure if they call Trinitarianism "blasphemy" or not. @Katzpur ?
Mormons do not believe in the Trinity, although some of the books written by its leaders use the word. The Mormon church teaches that those three- Father, Son and Holy Spirit are 3 separate and distinct Gods, thus violating the Bible's teachings of one God (Is. 43:10). And, the LDS church goes on to teach there are quite possibly Trillions of Gods (every man can become a God). Brigham Young (BY) taught, "There never was a time when there weren't God". I have it referenced in 'The Discourses of BY', the 'Journal of Discourses' and a couple of other books. Now, BY taught ALL of his sermons, which that was, are Scripture. He also taught, speaking of Joseph Smith's (JS) teaching that 'men live on the , dress like Quakers, and live, generally, to the age of 1,000', that men live on the sun. I'm not making this stuff up. These are reasons why Katspur doesn't want to have an honest, open and civil discussion about the LDS doctrines.
The LDS have never quite explained how the Holy Spirit, who, like all Gods before him started out as spirit beings in Heaven (literal 'children' of God and one of his myriads of wives) then became human and then progressed to be a God- or, at least I have never read it if they have. Maybe Katspur can help us with that info.
 
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