Your Opinion Please

[AlsoAnima]

You don't have to, so why do you want to? I argue that the motivation is emotional, just as you've said that the atheist's motivation to live is emotional.

I do have to, that's what an obligation is. Something you're supposed to do.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I do have to, that's what an obligation is. Something you're supposed to do.

"Supposed to" doesn't mean you have to. You have a choice. You don't have to, so why do you want to? I argue that the motivation is emotional, just as you've said that the atheist's motivation to live is emotional.

 

[AlsoAnima]

"Supposed to" doesn't mean you have to. You have a choice. You don't have to, so why do you want to? I argue that the motivation is emotional, just as you've said that the atheist's motivation to live is emotional.

If it's emotional, identify the emotion that forced me to do it. o.o

 

[CarlinKnew]

If it's emotional, identify the emotion that forced me to do it. o.o

The idea that you're pleasing god makes you feel fulfilled. This is comparable to the fulfilment that the atheist feels by choosing his own purpose in life. So the idea that the theist's life has more 'logical value' than the atheist's is baseless.

 

[AlsoAnima]

The idea that you're pleasing god makes you feel fulfilled.

Not really. o.o

This is comparable to the fulfilment that the atheist feels by choosing his own purpose in life.

Wait... do you even know what fulfillment is? You can't get it from choosing something, only from fulfilling something, hence fulfillment.

So the idea that the theist's life has more 'logical value' than the atheist's is baseless.

I'm going to disagree with you there.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Not really. o.o

Do you get any 'good feelings' by worshipping god or knowing that you're following his plan/duty for you?

Wait... do you even know what fulfillment is? You can't get it from choosing something, only from fulfilling something, hence fulfillment.

Hmm, do you? One can set a goal or give himself a purpose, and upon reaching that goal or fulfilling that purpose, he may feel fulfillment.

I'm going to disagree with you there.

Explain.

 

[AlsoAnima]

Do you get any 'good feelings' by worshipping god or knowing that you're following his plan/duty for you?

Not really, no.

Hmm, do you? One can set a goal or give himself a purpose, and upon reaching that goal or fulfilling that purpose, he may feel fulfillment.

You can't fulfill a purpose, who at least you shouldn't be able to, otherwise it's more of a goal.

Explain.

I already have, the logical conclusion to Atheism is that life has no meaning, imagining a fake meaning doesn't change the logical conclusion.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Not really, no.

Right.

Why do you do what god wants you to do? You have a choice. You don't have to, so why do you want to? Are you telling me there's no emotional incentive whatsoever? What is the reason?

You can't fulfill a purpose, who at least you shouldn't be able to, otherwise it's more of a goal.

:areyoucra Why can't someone fulfill his purpose?

I already have, the logical conclusion to Atheism is that life has no meaning, imagining a fake meaning doesn't change the logical conclusion.

What do you mean 'fake meaning'? What constitutes a 'real meaning'?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I already have, the logical conclusion to Atheism is that life has no meaning, imagining a fake meaning doesn't change the logical conclusion.

Do you have children?

 

[AlsoAnima]

Do you have children?

No. I can't have children actually. Touchy subject.

Right.

Why do you do what god wants you to do? You have a choice. You don't have to, so why do you want to? Are you telling me there's no emotional incentive whatsoever? What is the reason?

Like I said, I do it because I'm supposed to do it. I don't think any person actively disobeys someone (let alone Deity) for no good reason. I have no good reason not to do it, I am supposed to do it, so I do it.

:areyoucra Why can't someone fulfill his purpose?

Because a purpose and a goal are different. "I want to stop this war." is a goal, "I want to prevent war." is a purpose, something that requires constant work.

What do you mean 'fake meaning'? What constitutes a 'real meaning'?

Something you don't imagine up to make you feel better constitutes real meaning.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I already have, the logical conclusion to Atheism is that life has no meaning, imagining a fake meaning doesn't change the logical conclusion.

Protip: Including the word "logical" in an argument doesn't make it so.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No. I can't have children actually. Touchy subject.

I am very sorry.

I have children. I had four but lost one (actually, it was 7 years ago tomorrow). I also have 12 grandchildren including those from my 2nd marriage. I marvel in them daily. Are you truly so arrogant or thoughtless as to suggest that my life has no meaning?

 

[CarlinKnew]

I don't think any person actively disobeys someone (let alone Deity) for no good reason.

Why not? God wants you to do it, so what? Why do you care what god wants? It would be easier to just do whatever you want, so you must have a good reason to care about what god wants. What is that reason?

Because a purpose and a goal are different. "I want to stop this war." is a goal, "I want to prevent war." is a purpose, something that requires constant work.

"I will do my best to prevent war as long as I live" is an example of a life purpose which is possible to fulfill.

Something you don't imagine up to make you feel better constitutes real meaning.

So, it's only real if someone else, preferably a god, 'imagines up' this meaning for you?

 

[TheKnight]

Is it possible that we as a species will ever reach a point where we simply say that those things that are defined as "moral" are in fact simply the logical restrictions on behavior that are necessary for a society to thrive and that they should exist not because some deiy commanded it but because that is the only way that humans function properly?

I don't believe that this is possible. Why? Because we all disagree on the "appropriate" way to live. The only thing we could do is to consider those values that everyone agrees with to be moral as moral.

The sad thing is, to almost every moral ideology, there is another moral ideology which disagrees.

So would you say then that all the laws about slavery, selling your daughter if you are in debt, stoning people for being disrespectful toward parents or a judge are also inclusive in God's moral law? If so, why do you not advocate the return of those moral imperatives?

Those laws, within the context of the legal system that they were given along with, are a part of God's moral law.

I already have, the logical conclusion to Atheism is that life has no meaning, imagining a fake meaning doesn't change the logical conclusion.

No. The conclusion of the Atheist is that there is no God. Whether or not life has value is not dependent on the existence of a God, but on the individual. The existence of a God only changes the nature of that value. Lack of belief in a God does not mean that one beliefs there is no value to life whatsoever.

 

[TheKnight]

Why not? God wants you to do it, so what? Why do you care what god wants? It would be easier to just do whatever you want, so you must have a good reason to care about what god wants. What is that reason?

Yes, but if a person wants to do what God wants, then they will do what they believe God asks of them.

Wanting to do something is, in itself, a reason. If one does not want to do what God wants, then they will have to explain why they attempt to do what He wants.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Yes, but if a person wants to do what God wants, then they will do what they believe God asks of them.

Wanting to do something is, in itself, a reason. If one does not want to do what God wants, then they will have to explain why they attempt to do what He wants.

"I want to" is not a reason. Why do you want to? There is always motivation behind what someone wants.

 

[AlsoAnima]

I have children. I had four but lost one (actually, it was 7 years ago tomorrow). I also have 12 grandchildren including those from my 2nd marriage. I marvel in them daily. Are you truly so arrogant or thoughtless as to suggest that my life has no meaning?

Hm? No, that's not my argument. I think all life has meaning, however what I'm saying is that the logical conclusion of atheist ideology is that life is without meaning.

Why not? God wants you to do it, so what? Why do you care what god wants? It would be easier to just do whatever you want, so you must have a good reason to care about what god wants. What is that reason?

Disobeying one's creator doesn't make sense, it goes against the natural law of things. I don't expect my controller to change to the channels it wants.Nor do I expect my computer to create a list of websites that it likes to visit.

"I will do my best to prevent war as long as I live" is an example of a life purpose which is possible to fulfill.

No it's not. You'd have to die in order to fufill it, and then you'd have to quantify what best is.

So, it's only real if someone else, preferably a god, 'imagines up' this meaning for you?

It's only real if it's bigger than yourself.

 

[Mr Cheese]

There are many examples of physical facts that were understood by the ancients in religious terms. For example, the ancient Egyptians believed that the god Ra shoved the sun across the sky and that during the twelve hours of night (they were the first to mark twelve hours btw) Ra was working his way beneath the earth and facing twelve obstacles that they (the Egyptians) assisted Ra in overcoming by performing certain rituals. So, sixty points for figuring out the whole 24 hours thing but minus several thousand for making up a story to explain the stuff they didn't understand.

Now, in the same vein, I have heard all my life about all the great benefits of the Judeo-Christian morality system (to the point that other morality systems are given little or no credit) and I think that most people, when they think of morality, think of it in religious terms.

Is it not entirely possible that our whole moral code is very like how the ancients viewed physics. What I mean is that there are certain facts that are true. Societies can only thrive if things like murder, theft, and adultery are kept in check. In the past all of these came down as commandments.

Is it possible that we as a species will ever reach a point where we simply say that those things that are defined as "moral" are in fact simply the logical restrictions on behavior that are necessary for a society to thrive and that they should exist not because some deiy commanded it but because that is the only way that humans function properly?

the golden rule is all you need....

all the rest is commentary.

All the other morals and dogmas are all covered within that.
It is of course also what is at the heart of all the major religious practices.

But something so simple, that is actually inherantly the most complicated of "all" things...requires commentary for people to understand.

The earliest written example of the golden rule goes back to ancient egypt...

Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching

etc
....

Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you
in time - It's easy.

All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love, love.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love, all you need is love,
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.
All you need is love (all together now)
All you need is love (everybody)
All you need is love, love, love is all you need.

 

[gnomon]

however what I'm saying is that the logical conclusion of atheist ideology is that life is without meaning.

Merely stating something doesn't make it true.

For example,

I'm Ebenezer Scrooge.

Now is that so?

Anyway, there is no atheist ideology. There are atheists who believe a "super" advanced race of being from another planet created the human race. There are atheists who worship nature. There are atheists who don't believe in any religious belief yet find humanism a spiritual end in itself. Then there are those who don't find meaning in anything.

 

[TheKnight]

"I want to" is not a reason. Why do you want to? There is always motivation behind what someone wants.

So I take it that you don't believe in Freedom of Choice? Free choice is when a person, without any particular reason, decides to do something. Wanting to is most certainly.

Why did I eat that ice cream? Because I wanted to. I had the desire within myself of eating ice cream and acted on that desire.

Wanting to is a reason in and of itself. I want to may not be a justification, but it is a reason.