Your family in Hell whilst you're in Heaven?

[epronovost]

Nah. In Catholicism, both you and @Pope Hilarius II might get a pass on invincible ignorance. At least we hope.

Invincible ignorance (Catholic theology) - Wikipedia

I have read the Bible a few times, am familiar with Christian theology having read the work of Aquinas, Martin Luther and Pope Gregory and a few others. I don't think I can claim invicible ignorance. It would be ridiculous to assume that I have not yet gained the opportunity to hear Jesus's message since I read the books containing said messages and rejected them as ridiculous and rather boring superstition and half-baked moralistic fables.

 

[Cooky]

I have read the Bible a few times, am familiar with Christian theology having read the work of Aquinas, Martin Luther and Pope Gregory and a few others. I don't think I can claim invicible ignorance. It would be ridiculous to assume that I have not yet gained the opportunity to hear Jesus's message since I read the books containing said messages and rejected them as ridiculous and rather boring superstition and half-baked moralistic fables.

As I mentioned earlier, the bible is not a tell-all, and the Catholic Church does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth. No religion on earth can rightfully claim that, nor do any attempt to claim it that I'm aware of.

God has a plan for everyone. He even said the poor will inherit the kingdom -but didn't assign qualifiers to that... It's going to be between you and Him then. Since you're going solo.

 

[Cooky]

Everyone is entitled to their faith, but this is not what the Bible says. Oh I forgot, some religions do not always follow the Bible.

Do you think that the bible reveals all Truth? Or just a bit?

...Because the bible does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth. Some things we can't know, and others are not sinful to assume.

 

[nPeace]

Am I, and the OP's family, considered wicked in your belief system?

You don't seem to understand what I am saying to you. I can't determine whether you and your family are wicked or not, from God's point of view.
Jesus will judge who is wicked, when he comes.
Did you read the scriptures I linked?
From what I understand from the Bible, everyone has an opportunity to be sheep - that is, meek ones of the earth.
Everyone chooses, based on what they know, learn, accept, etc.
Some people choose a course that is righteous, early. Some make that choice late. Some never make that choice. Some make that choice, and later change their mind.
I don't know what anyone's choice will be.
Jesus said, (Matthew 24:14) . . .good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
This good news is what helps people to choose God's way. That is why Jesus himself preached from village to village, and town to town, but the choice rests with the listener, on what they would do, with what they hear.
When the good news has been preached as a witness to God's satisfaction, he will decide who is wicked.
I don't do that. I can't. I preach the good news.
I would say, that currently, there are wicked people on earth (People who murder, rape, defraud, steal, etc., are considered wicked... if they know they are doing wrong), but wicked people change.
There will come a time when the time for change runs out. The Bible says, at that time, it would be too late for change.
(Revelation 22:10, 11)
10 He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near. 11 Let the one who is unrighteous continue in unrighteousness, and let the filthy one continue in his filth; but let the righteous one continue in righteousness, and let the holy one continue in holiness.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do you think that the bible reveals all Truth? Or just a bit?

...Because the bible does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth. Some things we can't know, and others are not sinful to assume.

But if the Bible says one thing and some man in a robe says something different, I will follow the Bible.

 

[nPeace]

Do you think that the bible reveals all Truth? Or just a bit?

...Because the bible does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth. Some things we can't know, and others are not sinful to assume.

The Bible doesn't? Really?
Perhaps your church have not read those scriptures to you, nor encouraged you to read them.
Try this. Get a digital Bible, if you don't have one, already, and type the word "truth" in the search bar.
See what the results reveal about what the Bible claims about truth.
You may be surprised, its claims are contrary to your claims.

 

[epronovost]

I would say, that currently, there are wicked people on earth (People who murder, rape, defraud, steal, etc., are considered wicked... if they know they are doing wrong), but wicked people change.
There will come a time when the time for change runs out. The Bible says, at that time, it would be too late for change.

Am I, currently, considered a wicked person in your belief system? What's your opinion on that matter; are blasphemers and unbelievers wicked? Also when is it too late for change?

 

[Cooky]

But if the Bible says one thing and some man in a robe says something different, I will follow the Bible.

That's your choice, though the bible passages were hand picked, and hand written by men in robes.

 

[Cooky]

The Bible doesn't? Really?
Perhaps your church have not read those scriptures to you, nor encouraged you to read them.
Try this. Get a digital Bible, if you don't have one, already, and type the word "truth" in the search bar.
See what the results reveal about what the Bible claims about truth.
You may be surprised, its claims are contrary to your claims.

Really... It dosen't... The bible does not claim to hold the fullness of *all* Truth.

...I cannot prove a negative. It's impossible. You'll have to show me where it does, or cease making the claim.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Your family can only go to hell if they are naturally bad, or evil. It works itself out.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

(I’m writing this post from a Christian perspective…)

So… I believe in God and accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour and have been baptised as an adult as a public commitment to Christianity, and as a fresh start. And I live my life accordingly and value my relationship with God.

However, none of my family are religious.

This is the thing that gets me…

As I understand it, people are “saved” on account of their relationship with God

Those who are “saved” go to what we call “Heaven” after they die

Whereas those who aren’t will go to what is known as “Hell” (which is the default destination)

Both for eternity (whatever that means)

Now, here’s the thing…

Imagine I’m going to go to Heaven (which I hope I am) on account of my relationship with God (although I would never presume anything, for all I know I could be very much hell bound!)

This would mean that my family members would go to Hell on account of them being irreligious

Here’s my conundrum:

How could one enjoy Heaven knowing one’s family is suffering in Hell for all eternity?

If I go to Heaven I will insist on having my family join me there

I’d hope that this would be possible

Has this occurred to anyone else?

Do people think this would be possible?

Just ditch the belief in an eternal hell. When I was a devout Catholic, I believed in universal reconciliation. The book of Revelation even says that even hell itself will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed at the end of days.

 

[dfnj]

So… I believe in God and accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour
However, none of my family are religious.How could one enjoy Heaven knowing one’s family is suffering in Hell for all eternity?
If I go to Heaven I will insist on having my family join me there
I’d hope that this would be possible
Has this occurred to anyone else?
Do people think this would be possible?

I don't believe in Hell. The idea of Hell was invented by people who could not find justice in their lives. Hell is just a popular belief that there is some kind of final justice or revenge in the afterlife for people who have hate in their hearts because they have experienced great acts of evil done to them by others. I believe final justice is just wishful thinking. I think there is no Hell and everyone gets to enter the gates of Heaven to experience eternal Heavenly bliss regardless of our Earthly sins or how we practiced, or not practiced, our religion. There are a couple of reasons why I have come to this conclusion.

The first reason is the nature of our omnipotent God. God is perfect, whole, and complete. God lacks nothing, desires nothing, and needs nothing. Because God does not have any desires or needs, God is absolute perfection and Goodness. Our needs and desires are the source of all that is evil in the World. Our Universe was not created by God out of some desire or need. The Universe was created out of an overflowing abundance of energy coming from and out of the wholeness and perfection that is God. Because the Universe, nature, and human beings are not whole, complete, and perfect like God, we were created with imperfections. It is these imperfections that are the source of all that is evil the World. Our imperfections are the source of all our needs and desires. Since God is perfect having no needs and desires then God has no reason to judge us one way or the other.

My second reason as to do with forgiveness and faith. I am very confident our omnipotent God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about. God is fully aware of all our imperfections and would have no reason to judge us as if we were perfect like God. My faith in not in a God of judgment. My faith is in a God of unconditional love. Unconditional means regardless of sins. A God of unconditional love is really good news for some people. For some people, it takes every ounce of God's infinite powers of forgiveness to truly love someone unconditionally. But this is what omnipotent means. Omnipotent means without limitations. So because our omnipotent God is all-powerful I see no reason why our God would be one of judgment. What could possibly irritate the absolute wholeness and perfection that is God? Why would God judge us against His own perfection knowing full well we were all created with imperfections.

My third reason has to do with what many people claim happens during near-death experiences. Most people who have had near death experiences claim there is light at the end of the tunnel. The expression often said when you are at your death, "go into the light." A the time of our death I think we will all experience the light at the end of the tunnel. We will all go into the light when we die. The moment we go into the light we experience God's infinite beauty, wholeness, and perfection. At this moment, every possible experience of fulfillment, including your love of family, is experienced in the greatest possible way. We are completely and totally immersed in the energy of absolute love. We cease to have needs. We cease to have desires. Our sense of time ceases to exist as we become enamored in God's infinite beauty. This is the experience of eternal bliss. So my question would be to anyone who is complaining about evil people getting through the gates of Heaven to experience eternal bliss is why would you care? What difference does it make to you? You will be too busy experiencing God's infinite beauty, perfection, and wholeness to think about or care about anything or anyone else. Eternal bliss is our penultimate and final experience. It's nice to imagine there is something good to look forward to after we die!

My fourth reason has to do with the physics of reality and the realization of God's omnipotence. It seems very unlikely our Universe is just a one-shot deal. It seems more likely that the Universe is cyclical in some way and the Big Bang is some kind of reoccurring event. Physicists have an idea of what is called a white hole. It may be when a star collapses to a black hole it creates a white hole, or Big Bang, in a newly created space-time dimension. And if we accept the many-Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and combine it with the idea of a cyclical Universe then we have a multidimensional Universe where over some unimaginable amount of time every possible quantum state gets realized. In one space-time dimension you marry Susan. And in another alternate reality you marry Alice. The point being over entire multiverse, God's omnipotence gets realized and played out by every possible possibility occurring as part of God's experience of the multiverse. In one space-time dimension we are the greatest saint. And in another space-time dimension we are a serial killer. God's omnipotence has to be realized in one way or another. Since God gets to see every possible aspect of who we are over the entire multiverse, why would God judge us one way or another when God gets to experience every aspect of who we are in every way possible. It would seem to me God would be indifferent to just any one lifetime version of who we are given all the others that exist as part of God's multidimensional experience.

And my fifth reason has to do with ego delusion. No one invented sex. Nobody owns sexuality. Sex is just part of the human experience. The same can be said about every aspect of the human character. Everything you hold dear about yourself and think is a unique part of who you are as a person is equally exhibited in millions of other people. It is ego delusion to think there is anything unique about who you are as a person. Everything you hold dear and valuable is exactly the same other people. A human being is part of a human system. We do not have a singular mind. Our mind is part of a cultural and physical presence shared as one collective consciousness. So why would God judge anyone to be worthy of suffering eternal damnation when we are all exactly the same person but with different skin.

Once you understand everything about who you think you are is a delusion, your ego dies. Once your ego dies you are reborn into a new way of looking at and experiencing humanity. Once you are born-again you will see others not only as equals but you see others as quite literally yourself. Sure, everyone has different life experiences and character configurations. But people who share similar experiences think in very similar ways. We are all one mind experiencing the Universe with all the same existential problems. Everything we hold dear and think is part of who we are exists in exactly the same way in other people. Therefore, we do not die when our body dies. We all continue to live on in other people. Everything we love and hold dear will continue to exist in other people. As long as the human race continues to exist so shall we all.

To summarize: There is no Hell. We all suffer from the same imperfections. We all want to be whole, complete, and perfect like God. Everyone gets to experience eternal Heavenly bliss. We all exist so God gets to experience the thrill of having limitations. Our purpose in life is to realize God's omnipotence by making choices. Nobody dies because everything you think is unique about who you are lives on in other people.

 

[nPeace]

Am I, currently, considered a wicked person in your belief system? What's your opinion on that matter; are blasphemers and unbelievers wicked? Also when is it too late for change?

You still are not understanding.
Example...
Say a person curses, "like a fisherman", swears at, and calls down evil on God.
Am I allowed to judge that person as wicked? No.
Why not? Clearly, the person is doing what is not right in God's eyes, but are they wickedly doing these things? I don't know. God knows.
Recall when Jesus prayed... “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)
Jesus knew that the people acted out of ignorance.
(1 Corinthians 2:7, 8) 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. . .
Someone looking on, at the Romans mistreating Jesus, and executing him, might consider them wicked, but Jesus did not.
See. We judge without having all the facts.... Facts we can't have. So I cannot judge the person as wicked.

A wicked person is not ignorant, they deliberately do what they know is wrong.
So, if you are deliberately doing what is wrong, you know that you are wicked, but I would not know. That's between you and God, and you make the decision if you want to change, or not.
One cannot fool God. He knows the heart. He is the true lie detector.

As regard your last question, "When is it too late to change?" I answered that. That depends on God. Read the point I made, under the text Matthew 24:14.

 

[nPeace]

Really... It dosen't... The bible does not claim to hold the fullness of *all* Truth.

...I cannot prove a negative. It's impossible. You'll have to show me where it does, or cease making the claim.

Are we talking about *all* truth concerning God, and pure worship, or are you talking about *all* truth, like if milk is white?

 

[epronovost]

You still are not understanding.
Example...
Say a person curses, "like a fisherman", swears at, and calls down evil on God.
Am I allowed to judge that person as wicked? No.
Why not? Clearly, the person is doing what is not right in God's eyes, but are they wickedly doing these things? I don't know. God knows.
Recall when Jesus prayed... “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)
Jesus knew that the people acted out of ignorance.
(1 Corinthians 2:7, 8) 7 But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory. 8 It is this wisdom that none of the rulers of this system of things came to know, for if they had known it, they would not have executed the glorious Lord. . .
Someone looking on, at the Romans mistreating Jesus, and executing him, might consider them wicked, but Jesus did not.
See. We judge without having all the facts.... Facts we can't have. So I cannot judge the person as wicked.

A wicked person is not ignorant, they deliberately do what they know is wrong.
So, if you are deliberately doing what is wrong, you know that you are wicked, but I would not know. That's between you and God, and you make the decision if you want to change, or not.
One cannot fool God. He knows the heart. He is the true lie detector.

As regard your last question, "When is it too late to change?" I answered that. That depends on God. Read the point I made, under the text Matthew 24:14.

How can you call murders, thieves and rapists wicked then? How can you know all of them "know" what they do is wrong and judge them wicked even though you can't or at least are not allowed to do so? Did you breach your own code inadvertently or is there a special exception for rapits, murders and thieves that doesn't cover blasphemer and unbelievers? It almost sound like you are bloviating to avoid hurting my feelings.

PS: You telling me I'm a wicked monster who will be tortured for all eternity would not hurt my feelings and yo would not be the first Christian to condamn me in such a manner if you so happen to share this view (not that I imply you do; I'm currently trying to understand your view)

 

[Cooky]

Are we talking about *all* truth concerning God, and pure worship, or are you talking about *all* truth, like if milk is white?

The bible does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth, and it most certainly does not. Much has yet to be revealed.

 

[Cooky]

How can you call murders, thieves and rapists wicked then? How can you know all of them "know" what they do is wrong and judge them wicked even though you can't or at least are not allowed to do so? Did you breach your own code inadvertently or is there a special exception for rapits, murders and thieves that doesn't cover blasphemer and unbelievers? It almost sound like you are bloviating to avoid hurting my feelings.

PS: You telling me I'm a wicked monster who will be tortured for all eternity would not hurt my feelings and yo would not be the first Christian to condamn me in such a manner if you so happen to share this view (not that I imply you do; I'm currently trying to understand your view)

There are certain mental illnesses that can cause people to murder, steal and rape -changing culpability factors. There are various levels of temptation to sin, which can depend on what geographical region one lives in as well as their social status.

...The bible makes no mention of this.

...There are many millions of things left unsaid.

...The bible is insufficient through Sola Scriptura, as being the sole proprietor of faith teachings. It was never intended to be, which is why biblical fundamentalism cannot be fully trusted by itself. There must be another connection to God to pair it with. To give it life.

 

[nPeace]

How can you call murders, thieves and rapists wicked then? How can you know all of them "know" what they do is wrong and judge them wicked even though you can't or at least are not allowed to do so? Did you breach your own code inadvertently or is there a special exception for rapits, murders and thieves that doesn't cover blasphemer and unbelievers? It almost sound like you are bloviating to avoid hurting my feelings.

PS: You telling me I'm a wicked monster who will be tortured for all eternity would not hurt my feelings and yo would not be the first Christian to condamn me in such a manner if you so happen to share this view (not that I imply you do; I'm currently trying to understand your view)

I think you may not be chewing over what I write. That would help I think.
Notice, I said...
I would say, that currently, there are wicked people on earth (People who murder, rape, defraud, steal, etc., are considered wicked... if they know they are doing wrong), but wicked people change.

I picked up that you are trying to understand my view, but I hope you are not reading my posts a bit too quickly, that you might not understand what I am explaining.

 

[nPeace]

The bible does not claim to hold the fullness of all Truth, and it must certainly does not. Much has yet to be revealed.

You didn't answer my question. Any reason why?
So, if we are talking about what the Bible says, concerning God, and pure worship, rather than whether milk is pink, green or white, the Bible does claim to hold the fullness of all truth.
Once you can verify what you mean by *all*, I can decide whether showing you those scriptures are necessary or not.

 

[Cooky]

You didn't answer my question. Any reason why?
So, if we are talking about what the Bible says, concerning God, and pure worship, rather than whether milk is pink, green or white, the Bible does claim to hold the fullness of all truth.
Once you can verify what you mean by *all*, I can decide whether showing you those scriptures are necessary or not.

I already know what you're going to do. You're going to lob cherry-picked scripture verses at me, and claim they mean something out of their original context.

...Because that's what fundamentalists always do, to try to prove that the bible tells us everything about everything.

Sorry. I don't want to be rude. You've been kind to me thus far, and I know this is the part where that might change. I'd rather not go any further. @Jim would be proud if we stop here.