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Featured Your family in Hell whilst you're in Heaven?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Feb 14, 2020.

  1. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    I'm not "fine" to anybody in particular. I guess we could say to anybody who analysis my behavior using the same moral framework as I do (which is quite a bit of people and than some since my moral framework has massive overlaps with others).
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    So now I am trying to understand your belief system. :)
    You think you are fine, but you are not fine to anybody in particular - including yourself? [​IMG]o_O
    Edit @epronovost, or do you mean, only family, and friends that know you personally?
     
  3. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    The thing is, there are three reasons why Jesus and his followers would believe in the flood and what reportedly happened to Sodom and Gomorrah: 1) they believed because those events did actually happen, 2) they believed because that's what people in that time and place believed to be actual history but they were in fact myths or 3) there was a mixture of fact and mythology involved. I'm going to answer "I don't know". You can call me agnostic on this issue.

    Your arguments made sense so I modified my position - I now do not believe that hell makes sense. And I don't see God snuffing out evil people as "killing" them either - I see it more like them being discontinued, or failing to get to the next level. I believe that sinners can be redeemed but that truly evil people will be extinguished. But of course, that's just my opinion.

    Yes, I agree, but I believe that everyone should have the freedom to interpret the bible according to their own conscience and intellect and I'll always be somewhat wary of a person who claims to have the one and only correct interpretation, I believe the bible can be read in many ways

    Have a look at this - several different approaches to using the bible, depending on what scripture, tradition, reason and experience say. They're organised into a kind of continuum. I fit into the third from left category, which out of all the categories is the one that relies most on reason:

    bibleviews.png
     
    #143 Eddi, Feb 15, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  4. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    I believe many things are taken into account - such as conduct towards others and one's relationship with God

    But only God knows
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'll get back to you on this. I took a quick look at the chart, and already a number of questions popped into my head, which I want to ask you. So see you later.
     
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  6. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    By "nobody in particular" I actually meant that I do not look up to someone in paticular as a moral guide or judge; as an authority on my morality. Of course, I do believe I am a good man and so do my familly, collegues, friends, lover, ex-lover and students. I believe it's the case since I understand and know my moral system and I am generally capable of following it without much trouble despite some hickups (yes, I have done some "bad things", but none of them particularly grave).

    On the other hand, some people do think I am a bad person because they don't share some of my values like gender and ethnic equality or the fact that I do not revere their deity or follow norms of behavior they consider essential. I'm not married for example yet live with a woman and father a child. This is considered wicked and wrong by some people, but is completely irrelevent in my moral system. I do not sacrifices a goat every spring like some culture do and for them this is putting my familly and friends at risk of missfortune for I haven't appeased the spirits. For these people, this is very wrong and evil, but since I don't believe in the efficacy of such sacrifices, let alone spirits, I consider this irrelevent.
     
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  7. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I understand.
    So basically, you are fine, as long as you feel comfortable within your mind with what you consider fine, or good.
    So even if all your family members were to think that you should sacrifice a goat, that would not affect your view.
    Fair enough. I think one should do what they are comfortable in mind, is the right thing to do.

    That helps me get a better perspective on why you asked the question earlier.
    So, you don't think you are wicked, because you don't believe it is necessary for you to do certain things to please any deity, and so, certain rules do not apply to you.
    So I have a question.
    First of all, let me say that, according to the Bible, persons who may feel that way, are not considered wicked, but neither are they considered righteous. They fall into the category of unrighteous... which isn't fine, by the way. :)

    So my question is this: Say you died, and you woke up, to find yourself in a new world - where things are very different. There is no wickedness, and you learn that people are alive, who lived before - including ancient prophets, like Moses, Elijah, etc., and you are being taught things that include the right way to live to please God.
    Say that you learned that the world you knew was destroyed by God, and the world you are now experiencing, is of his making, which would explain why everything is so different, and everyone is living in peace, with no guns, or weapons of war; no pollution; no sicknesses.
    Do you think you would live your life to please the deity, accepting that to do otherwise would be to demonstrate that you don't want to do what is right, and would therefore be wicked, deserving of death - complete removal from life?
     
  8. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    To put it in axiomatic form: different world; different rules. It's very probable that I would change my moral belief at least up to a certain point, though there is also a certain chance I would rebel against some prescriptions should they be contradictory, non-universal and/or abitrary (though since you seem to hint at some sort of perfect world there would be no such thing I presume).
     
  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I can think of other reasons.
    How about ...
    4) Jesus existed as a spirit being, in heaven - the only begotten son of God (aka the Word), before coming to earth. (John 1:1-5, 14-18; John 3:16; John 8:23; John 17) So Jesus was relating, not only what is written in scripture, but what he himself witnessed.
    5) Jesus and his followers, unlike modern Biblical skeptics, and opposers, accepted that the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures were writings passed down from their Jewish ancestors, whom had dealings with the God of Israel - YHWH.
    6) They could trace their genealogy with precision, and had zero reason to doubt the records, which were really copies of events recorded throughout their generations. For example
    (Luke 3:23-38)
    23 When Jesus began his work, he was about 30 years old, being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli, 31 son of Melea, son of Menna, son of Mattatha, son of Nathan, son of David, 32 son of Jesse, son of Obed, son of Boaz, son of Salmon, son of Nahshon, 34 son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of Terah, son of Nahor, 35 son of Serug, son of Reu, son of Peleg, son of Eber, son of Shelah, 36 son of Cainan, son of Arpachshad, son of Shem, son of Noah, son of Lamech, 37 son of Methuselah, son of Enoch, son of Jared, son of Mahalaleel, son of Cainan, 38 son of Enosh, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God.
    Of course, this would have been no problem for Jesus, as there would be no doubt as to where he came from.
    The writers claimed to be recounting historical events, and chronology.
    7) The accounts do not fit the criterion of myth. (Adam and Eve being created by a divine being would be one of the first to be considered mythical, and moving forward from there, which would overturn all the history of man, recorded by the early Bible writers). Which would make Jesus and his followers liars, like them.
    8) Being familiar with the fact that God did miracles, which was one of the evidences Jesus was God's son, the disciples had no reason to adopt a materialistic, or naturalistic ideology, that certain things were impossible - which is the basic reason for referring to the accounts as myth.

    The reasons supporting accepting these accounts as historical events, evidently are more favorable for Christians. However, as you rightly said, opinions differ... agnostic Christian. :D

    So if someone else's argument makes more sense, you will adjust your view, and so on. My point exactly.
    In that case, the Bible is not the authority. Do you see what I am saying?

    So basically you don't believe God has an earthly organisation, which was started with Jesus faithful followers, over which Jesus is the head (Ephesians 4:15 ; Ephesians 5:23), and whose members follow his heavenly leadership, and are used by him to oversee those God gathers to Christ (Matthew 24:14, 45; 28:18-20; John 13:35)?
    Many feel that way, I say, unfortunately.

    Questions on the first column...
    Where it says, reason, experience, and tradition should be judged in the light of the Bible - not the other way around.

    1) Say you reason on something, how would you know your reasoning is correct? Or say you experience something, how would you know your experience is correctly understood, or reflects what is reality? Same for tradition. How would you know if a tradition is right?
    For example, say you had a real experience that seems to clearly indicate alien life, and reasoning on the matter seem to make sense.
    This is just an example, but use anything you can think of, and help me see why your reason, and experience, or tradition, is superior.

    A question, based on your selection - which says... The way to apply Biblical teaching, in today's very different context, is not always obvious or straightforward. Reason is an important (God given) gift, which must be used to the full, in this process of interpretation.

    2) In today's changing world, which many describe as "morally declining", and fast changing and fading values, how do you know that your moral compass is not broke, or no longer pointing [to God]?
    For example, on the issue of abortion, when you reason, based on what may be ideas shaped by this world (which a person may argue, is not), how do you know it is compatible with God's view, especially if it conflicts with a Biblical teaching?
    Do you then interpret the text to mean what the modern view is?
    That does happen.
     
    #149 nPeace, Feb 15, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your honesty.
    I believe you may get a chance to demonstrate it... may. :)
     
  11. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    Yes, I understand where you're coming from. I was lead to change my opinion by the fact that hell doesn't make sense...

    ...in this instance, reason lead me to the bible. I can assure you that I do not change my opinions often and that when I do I tend to hold onto them, once they have changed. You have demonstrated a biblical basis for hell not existing and I have accepted that, in part based on the authority I already accorded scripture (as well as due to reason).

    If you show me something scriptural I am the kind of person inclined to at least consider it, on the merits of the claim. So long as it doesn't set alarm bells ringing in the critical thinking department. I believe God created reason and that it pleases him when we apply it. I believe reason can tell us about God as much as looking at scripture can and that both are God given and point to God! But I'll come back to this later in this post.

    You can't, they can only lead to tentative conclusions that are always open to debate. But the thing is, they need to be anchored in scripture. Reason, tradition and experience are the tools for understanding scripture, the word of God. There is no such thing as studying scripture without employing either reason, tradition, or experience :D

    It's not a matter of any of those things being superior or inferior, they all have to work together. It's a matter of emphasis. And I never said those things are superior to scripture! As I said in my above response, it's not a matter of whether reason, experience and tradition are employed to interpret scripture, it's the how they are employed. Different people will always see the same scripture differently, even if they are both Sola Scriptura people. There can be no interpretation without reason, tradition and experience. It is impossible for the bible to stand on its own. Surely you'd agree that your own interpretation of scripture is guided by your personal reason, the traditions of your denomination, and your experience as a human????

    Here's how I see it, based on my approach to the bible:

    Some parts of the bible are universal whereas other parts are culturally and historically specific to a certain place and time (i.e. the Middle East in ancient times)

    When we're looking at scripture the challenge is to be able to discern what parts are universal - we have to figure out God's will with the tools God gave us: reason.

    And some things are clearly historically specific. Check out this video from The West Wing (1 minute 40 seconds in):



    Some things in the bible God meant for the ancient Israelites. They sound absurd by Western standards, which is interesting as Western standards are very much influenced by Christianity :D

    If you look at all those things in the video I've shown you you will see that Christianity as it is practiced today (and in the mainstream) thankfully ignores many things that are in the bible, I believe this is a fact

    On the contrary: I think it's good for Christians to organise themselves into churches and that God wants Christianity to be organised

    I do however believe that people are entitled to interpret scripture and that it is the job of Christians to help each other understand what it all means and for them to make best sense out of scripture together rather than having one body of people who enforces dogmas onto others
     
  12. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @epronovost I just want to correct something I said, where I said, "according to the Bible, persons who may feel that way, are not considered wicked". I took it upon myself to judge by the situation, where that's not my job, but God's, since I don't have all the facts, but he does.
    I really should have said, according to the Bible, persons who may feel that way, might, or may not be, or are not necessarily considered wicked.
    Since God may have, or rather, God will have knowledge I don't have, he will know if the person is wicked, and that will be based on what's in the heart... which I can't see.
    So really, the right thing is to leave the judging to God, which is what we do.

    I just felt I needed to clear that up, but I think you understand fully
     
  13. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Would you enjoy, if they would hate to be there?

    Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous and for others is death. “Hell” is basically the second death, where soul and body are destroyed.

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 6:23

    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Matt. 10:28

    I believe those who are not righteous, would not want to be with God eternally. And if they would live forever, they would make life eternal suffering for all. That is why, I think it is better, if all will not live forever. If my family is not righteous, that is sad, not that if unrighteous will not live forever.
     
  14. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    What about the death and resurrection of Christ. Wasn't that necessary?
    If immortal souls were going to heaven long before Jesus, then what was the purpose of him dying and being raised from the dead?
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Eddi I am responding to you post here, but I did not want to edit your post, nor split this, so I have excluded the quote.

    I understand your position... Not that I agree with it. :D Thanks for explaining it though, and I don't disagree with everything you said.
    I will explain why some goes against what I believe to be the godly required way, and what my position is. (This may be long :eek::)). Bear with me please.

    Perhaps I had better start with the video (interesting clip).
    The "President" obviously thought he was using proper reason, while the "Doctor" was burying reason with Biblical and religious "nonsense". I picked up, that was what the movie was supposed to accomplish - the usual misrepresentation of reality from a Biblical perspective.

    The facts Bible bashing worldly people don't reveal, or rather, ignore, or ?perhaps? in ignorance just fail to grasp, is that the same Bible reveals that two different situation existed, and each situation had its own arrangements.
    According to scripture...
    When Jehovah chose the nation of Israel as his people, he was their king, and ruler, having authority to set laws, and enforce them, and punish wrongdoers.
    That was an entirely different system, for the reason that Jehovah - the holy one - was in their midst, abd therefore a very strict, if you will, system was necessary from God's perspective.
    He also had arrangements in place, which were for the purpose of fairness, and to benefit the people.

    When Jehovah stopped dealing with the nation of Israel, that ruler-ship no longer is exercised, based on it's laws, and judicial decisions.
    The rule that is to be exercised is the one, Jesus - the appointed ruler - spoke about, while on earth... the kingdom of God.
    Currently the kingdom has not begun ruling the whole earth. However, it's laws were being utilized, and promoted by the heir.

    So basically, what the "President" in the movie, and this is done by individuals of like mind, did, is mix the two systems, thus confusing the situation.
    For example, the creator of the clip, cleverly used a scripture in Deuteronomy on homosexuality, as a stepping stone, to his arguments against the present system, by mixing in judicial action from the former system - which doesn't apply to the present.
    These clever individuals always remind me of Genesis 3:1, against which apostle Paul gave this warning...
    (2 Corinthians 11:3, 4) 3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ. 4 For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him.

    We don't need to resort to the Mosaic Law, for laws against sexual immorality, including homosexuality. There are many in the present laws of conduct(1 Corinthians 6:9, 10 ; 1 Timothy 1:8-11)
    It is true we can benefit from the Laws given through Moses, which are not explicitly spelled out in the present laws. For example, not putting markings (tattoos) or cuttings, on your skin. That along with others, can guide us in principle, and help us get God's mind on matters, but the judicial action taken or recommended under the former system, does not apply to the latter system (Ephesians 2:13-18; Galatians 3:10-14).

    This is why I believe reason, and not just any reason, because reason is fine, but I think it depends on what kind of reason one uses, because even though God gave us ability to reason (I am glad to know you appreciate that gift. It's wonderful)... He gave Adam and Eve also... and they used reason, but how? Even though God gave us ability to reason, we may use worldly reason, as opposed to scriptural reason. Let me explain what I mean.
    Let me say first of all, that I understand you are not saying that reason alone is all you need. You probably share Robert Boyle's view, who said, "For as though a man may, with his naked eye, see heaven to be a very glorious object, ennobled with radiant stars of several sorts; yet, when his eye is assisted with a good telescope he cannot only discover a number of stars, (fixed and wandering), which his naked eye would never have shown him, but those planets which he could see before will appear to him much bigger and more distinct: so, although bare reason, well improved, will suffice to make a man behold many glorious attributes in the deity; yet the same reason, when assisted by revelation, may enable a man to discover far more excellencies in God and perceive them than he contemplated before, far greater and more distinctly. And to show how much a dim eye, illuminated by the Scriptures, is able to discover of the divine perfections, and how unobvious they are to the most piercing philosophical eyes . . "

    I believe we can reason from, or on the scriptures (and Bible principles), which is what we are considering, or we can reason from our own ideas, viewpoint, etc.
    Jesus obviously used reason - the best kind (Matthew 7:28, 29; John 7:45, 46) , but didn't he use God's word, or scripture? He did, of course, direct attention to the scriptures.
    The apostles reasoned from scripture. (Acts 17:2, 3, 17) 2 . . .for three sabbaths he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving by references . . .
    17 . . .he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews and the other people who worshipped God . . .
    (Acts 19:8) Entering the synagogue, for three months he spoke with boldness, giving talks and reasoning persuasively about the Kingdom of God.

    It was this kind of reason that allowed them to take the course they did.
    (Romans 12:1, 2) 1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    However, I don't want to make this too long, so in a nutshell, the Bible does not override reason, as is suggested in the first column of the chart you attached. I think the chart does not present an entirely fair "approach".
    So I will have to add my approach. (The chart is not bad though)
    After investigating whether the Bible is indeed truthful or not, I have come to the conclusion that the Bible is the inspired (God breathed) word of God, and can be trusted completely. Therefore, worldly reason, and experience - e.g.. (1 Corinthians 3:18-20) 18 Let no one deceive himself: If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this system of things, let him become a fool, so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.”
    are indeed judged in light of the Bible, along with scriptural reason and experience, e.g. (Psalm 34:8) . . .Taste and see that Jehovah is good; Happy is the man who takes refuge in him.

    Sounds good to me.
    I can illustrates it with this (just the first four (4) paragraphs).
    I can compare it to a few other situations.
    A person who is uncertain whether God is, or not... in doubt... will act on worldly wisdom, so rather than trust what God says, they will reason on their own ideas, views, etc.
    Take for example two situations that occurred in Babylon in the 6th century B.C.E.
    When the three Hebrew boys whom were better known by the Babylonian names given them - Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego - were threatened with death, if they doubted God's word, or were uncertain, they would have found themselves reasoning, as I have heard some people reason, "Well it's only a statue, made of wood. So bowing to it means nothing. It's not like we don't know it's not real, and we would not be worshiping it... just bowing"
    That's using reason, but isn't there something wrong with it?

    Similarly, I have heard some persons reason, "Well Daniel didn't have to pray at the same time, and he could have shut his window."
    This is how I see reason tripping persons up, who do not hold the Bible, as the complete word of God, or may have doubts about it, or about God.
    This apparently is why Paul wrote... (Hebrews 11:6) Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.
    If however, one has proven to themselves, that God is, and that the Bible truly is the word of God, which is what I have done, reason, as I described earlier, would not override what is written. What is writen, overrides that reason.

    To further emphasize that point. Recall that you were reasoning on why you think God does not kill, and why you think God does not torment. Say that reasoning were based entirely on what the scriptures actually said, it would be taken from scripture, rather than personal views, or ideas, or even feelings.
    For example, there is no scripture that says man has an immortal soul, and there is no scripture that says, man will be tormented in hell forever.
    One reading the scriptures, and seeing what they actually say, will see what I had pointed out - man, the soul - dies, and does not keep on living. Hell, as used in the Bible, becomes empty, and is removed forever - cast into the lake of fire, which the scriptures clearly says, is symbolic of the second death.
    So in that case, it is just a matter of having accurate knowledge from scripture.

    From what I have seen, the two things that get in the way of that, are 1) not being sure of the scriptures, and 2) not knowing what the scriptures say.
    I can understand how that... along with other things, would affect one's choice of their approach to using the Bible. I totally understand your position.
    This is something I am quite familiar with, because it is a fact that knowing what the Bible says, depends on our being associated with a community that takes it seriously - that is, that views it as completely the word of God.
    In your experience, do you find that is the situation with most pastors or clergy?
     
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  16. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    One of the elders at one of the churches I go to has taken me under his wing and he is a conservative sola scriptura kind of man, more conservative than I am but I respect him greatly - and he identifies most with the first column on the chart. We sometimes meet for coffee. He lives his life according to the bible and is a great influence on me but I am still learning to listen to what the bible says rather than what the secular world says, which has a greater influence on me, in our secular world! You remind me a bit of him in your general approach to scripture although I don't know what he thinks of your particular denomination. When it comes to not being sure of scriptures I plead guilty - for most of my life I've effectively been a secular humanist. That's the environment I was raised in. I find discerning what they say to be much easier. But I know it truly is a good book, and that I should probably trust it more than I do! But I believe reason, tradition, and experience all have their part to play too and I aim to cultivate my capacities for reason as well as my knowledge of God's word.
     
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  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I really do appreciate your honesty.
    One thing you said here, I would encourage you never to say again. :)
    Don't ever say, I should probably trust it more than I do.
    That right there is a clear statement of, "I don't know what I should do."
    If you are not sure of something, never feel you should be.
    What you should do, is get to be sure of what you are unsure of.
    If it is important to you, then it's something you should work hard at.
    I don't know if you watched the Lee Strobel's documentary - "The Case for Christ". He worked hard to prove to himself he was right... although he was dead wrong, but the point is, he put in everything to be sure.
    Once he was sure, he then knew exactly what he should do. There was no probably.

    So get to work Eddi. ;)
     
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  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    As Jesus taught at Matthew 13:34 that he would Not address the people without a parable story illustration.
    So, the parable illustrated story of Luke the 16th chapter is just that: an illustrative story and Not a real happening.
    The real happening is found at Acts of the Apostles 2:27; Acts of the Apostles 2:31
    The day Jesus died he went to: hell.
    Not to some religious-myth hell, but the Bible's hell which is mankind's temporary stone-cold grave .
    Jesus taught 'sleep in death ' at Luke 11:11-14 which is in agreement with Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18 and Ecclesiastes 9:5
    So, while dead Jesus was in biblical hell then Jesus was asleep in the grave until his God resurrected Jesus out of hell.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The ^ above ^ I find is Not what the Bible really teaches.
    The symbolic ' lake of fire ' is defined as being ' second death '- Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8.
    In death there is No torture but only unconscious sleep.
    This is why Jesus and the old Hebrew Scriptures both teach ' sleep in death ' .
    -> Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Jesus' words at John 11:11-14.
    Psalms 92:7 says the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' Not roasted forever.
    The choice given at 2 Peter 3:9 is to ' repent ' if we do Not wish to ' perish ' ( perish meaning be destroyed )
    As with dead Adam there was No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy, so none for anyone else.
    Since we are innocent of what father Adam did is why God made provision for a resurrection from death's sleep for us.
    Only some resurrected to heaven, but the majority of mankind to have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection.
    This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Revelation 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and bring ' healing ' to earth's nations as mentioned at Revelation 22:2.
    Healing as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Satan , Adam and Eve started out with perfection.
    Satan with angelic perfection
    Adam and Eve with human perfection
    So, a perfect person ( spirit or human ) can fall away.
    There is an interesting verse at Revelation 20:7 that after Jesus' 1,000-year reign over Earth ends Satan will be released from the abyss for a while and he will try to deceive again - verse 8.
    So, yes, even though mankind will reach the original human perfection that Adam and Eve had before their downfall, there will still be those who will rebel at this post-millennial time.
     
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