• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Your family in Hell whilst you're in Heaven?

nPeace

Veteran Member
I already know what you're going to do. You're going to lob cherry-picked scripture verses at me, and claim they mean something out of their original context.

...Because that's what fundamentalists always do, to try to prove that the bible tells us everything about everything.

Sorry. I don't want to be rude.
The Bible tells us everything we need to know about God, and pure worship. It does not tell us everything about everything - like if milk is green or blue.
You assume something though, that is apparently just a fear, not reality.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I think you may not be chewing over what I write. That would help I think.
Notice, I said...
I would say, that currently, there are wicked people on earth (People who murder, rape, defraud, steal, etc., are considered wicked... if they know they are doing wrong), but wicked people change.

I picked up that you are trying to understand my view, but I hope you are not reading my posts a bit too quickly, that you might not understand what I am explaining.

Well, I have a certain conundrum to present you. According to my understanding of biblical scriptures and assorted theological texts, blasphemy and lack of belief in God, Jesus's sacrifice redemptive power, etc. once exposed to it is a terrible sin that is deserving of being called wicked and deserves severe punishment. The part where it gets more complicated is that not only do I lack belief in God, Jesus's sacrifice redemptive, power, etc. but I also lack belief in divine punishment, Christian morality and in the concept of sins. Do I know that what I'm doing is wrong if I do not subscribe to the moral framework that would allow me to say that what I am doing is wrong yet know of it's existence and have a basic understanding of its principles and axioms?

Am I, currently, wicked and in urgent need of redemption or am I fine?
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Not from what I read in the Bible... unless I missed it, and you can help me by pointing it out.
Are you referring to John 3:16, where some translations use the word believe?
If so, the Greek expression there means more than believe. Also, those people die from inherited sin, not from God killing them. God only kills the wicked. Those who know what is right, or refuses to, but delights in unrighteousness.
However, we are not more righteous than God... Or do you disagree? Do you think you are more righteous than God?
So, in your belief system does God effectively kill people who are not saved??? or perhaps more accurately discontinue their life/existence as a conscious being?

It's a yes or no answer, so does he: yes or no?

So you do believe in torturing people... forever (imprisoned in terrible conditions for as long as they live and then be punished in the afterlife). Punished how exactly?
Punishment is different to torture. It would be silly to argue that prisoners in a prison are tortured. Punished how, you ask? I should imagine by being removed from God and good people. All the evil people do I believe deserve each other's evil company: the good can spend eternity with good people, the evil can spend eternity with evil people, that's how I see it. Good people whose conduct falls short of being totally good are I believe redeemed by Christ's sacrifice!

So you never killed anything. A centipede? A mosquito? A fly? Would you kill a snake? How about a dog that attacks you, or yours? Why... why not?
If you had a dog, that started mauling, would you put it down, or call the animal control, that will do it for you?
What's the difference between those animals, and a vicious human?
Yes, I have killed insects in the past

And strictly speaking, I shouldn't have if I wanted to be 100% humane

But I'm not a Supreme Being who is morally perfect, but I still aspire to be as "humane" as possible
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
Well, I have a certain conundrum to present you. According to my understanding of biblical scriptures and assorted theological texts, blasphemy and lack of belief in God, Jesus's sacrifice redemptive power, etc. once exposed to it is a terrible sin that is deserving of being called wicked and deserves severe punishment.
According to whom?
If you say God, then you must provide a scripture where he says so.

According to what I read here, at Matthew 12:31, 32, Jesus said, “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."

The question is, what does it mean to blaspheme the holy spirit.
Also, if lack of belief in God is as bad as you described, why does God even bother with such persons?
(1 Timothy 1:15) This saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these, I am foremost.
(Luke 5:32) I have come to call, not righteous people, but sinners to repentance.”
(2 Corinthians 5:19) 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not counting their offenses against them, and he entrusted to us the message of the reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us. As substitutes for Christ, we beg: “Become reconciled to God.” 21 The one who did not know sin, he made to be sin for us, so that by means of him we might become God’s righteousness.


The fact of the matter is, we were all born in sin (no fault of ours). God takes into account our nature, and because of his love, has made provisions, in our behalf, so that we might be his children... for eternity.
1 John 2:1, 2
1 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.

Taking into consideration that you said, "once exposed to it", which seem to indicate you are thinking of Hebrews 6:4-8, I think the question which needs to be considered is, How do you know you have been exposed to it"?
Why that is important is because, "many false prophets have gone out into the world". - (1 John 4:1)
Notice that John said many.
Jesus had earlier prophesied this, but he also identified a mark of his true followers.
(Matthew 24:11-14) 11 Many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness, the love of the greater number will grow cold. 13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Have you received the message of the good news of the kingdom? Has the end come, or do you still have time to hear, and act upon it?
These questions are important in determining the answers to your questions.
It's still between you and God though, because it's right back at what is in your heart, which God knows.
At the end of the day, it is the righteous who will get everlasting life. It also depends on how much effort one is willing to put in to gain live. So where one's heart is at, in other words. How much love for God is there. Any at all? Just a little bit? Or just not enough?
(1 John 5:1-4) 1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the one who caused to be born loves him who has been born from that one. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and carry out his commandments. 3 For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome, 4 because everyone who has been born from God conquers the world. And this is the conquest that has conquered the world, our faith.

The part where it gets more complicated is that not only do I lack belief in God, Jesus's sacrifice redemptive, power, etc. but I also lack belief in divine punishment, Christian morality and in the concept of sins. Do I know that what I'm doing is wrong if I do not subscribe to the moral framework that would allow me to say that what I am doing is wrong yet know of it's existence and have a basic understanding of its principles and axioms?

Am I, currently, wicked and in urgent need of redemption or am I fine?
The question is, why do you lack belief.
That's not my question to answer. It's your... and the answer is between you and God.
So whether you are wicked or not, is, as I said before, between you and him.
However, one thing is certain - according to the Bible... you are not fine. (John 3:16-21, 31-36; John 8; John 17...)
If you think you are fine, then please... I would be interested in hearing from you, why you think you are fine.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
(I’m writing this post from a Christian perspective…)

So… I believe in God and accept Christ as my Lord and Saviour and have been baptised as an adult as a public commitment to Christianity, and as a fresh start. And I live my life accordingly and value my relationship with God.

However, none of my family are religious.

This is the thing that gets me…

As I understand it, people are “saved” on account of their relationship with God

Those who are “saved” go to what we call “Heaven” after they die

Whereas those who aren’t will go to what is known as “Hell” (which is the default destination)

Both for eternity (whatever that means)

Now, here’s the thing…

Imagine I’m going to go to Heaven (which I hope I am) on account of my relationship with God (although I would never presume anything, for all I know I could be very much hell bound!)

This would mean that my family members would go to Hell on account of them being irreligious

Here’s my conundrum:

How could one enjoy Heaven knowing one’s family is suffering in Hell for all eternity?

If I go to Heaven I will insist on having my family join me there

I’d hope that this would be possible

Has this occurred to anyone else?

Do people think this would be possible?

First off, lose the sense of self-righteousness. Read thoroughly on what Jesus says to Pharisees who already consider themselves saved, especially the man who thanks himself that he is not a sinner while a poor woman offers all she has.

Remember what I tell you today. "God can raise up from these STONES..." To be religious is not a great feat. To have a loving and forgiving heart, that's what God cares for.

Second, at least in my case, I feel like it's likely to be the reverse. I am pious too, but I've realized that in terms of the social stuff, I just want to lock myself in my room and not talk to anyone.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
So, in your belief system does God effectively kill people who are not saved??? or perhaps more accurately discontinue their life/existence as a conscious being?

It's a yes or no answer, so does he: yes or no?
Does a hurricane kill those who have not been saved?
That sounds similar to your question.
If you don't take shelter from a hurricane (category 5), how likely is it, you will be saved?
If a person does not take shelter in God's secure place of refuge, how does that person expect to survive?
When God brought the flood were there any survivors? Yes there were, but why did they survive? Was it not because they obeyed God, in taking shelter in his provision - the Ark?
I am not sure if you are one of those "Christians" that don't believe that account really happened. Are you?
However, I can't seem to get those "Christians" to explain to me how they can be a Christian, and at the same time refer to, as myth, an actual historical account that Jesus and his followers related to as an actual real life event(Luke 17:26-30; Hebrews 11:7; 2 Peter 3:5-7)

Do you believe God killed the people in the days of Noah, and in Sodom and Gomorrah, or do you think those were mythical legends?
Also, do you think the Exodus account is a myth?

You do realize that putting evil people together for eternity is not considered a punishment from their perspective, right?
Do you know how much fun they will have, in each other's company?
I could just imagine "Joke night", as they sit around telling jokes about the good people, and laughing their head off. HarHarHarHarrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Those who accept God's means of salvation are saved. Those who reject it, perish. It's that simple. John 3:36.
Edit @Eddi
In other words, the wages of sin, is death - by whom? God.. You were born in sin. Therefore, you deserve to die.
If you don't accept the provision God has put in place, to save you, you will die... at God's hands.

Punishment is different to torture. It would be silly to argue that prisoners in a prison are tortured. Punished how, you ask? I should imagine by being removed from God and good people. All the evil people do I believe deserve each other's evil company: the good can spend eternity with good people, the evil can spend eternity with evil people, that's how I see it. Good people whose conduct falls short of being totally good are I believe redeemed by Christ's sacrifice!
So to you being imprisoned in terrible conditions for as long as they live is not torture.
That's what I am saying about differing opinions, because torture (from Latin tortus: to twist, to torment) is the act of deliberately inflicting severe physical or psychological suffering on someone by another as a punishment or in order to fulfill some desire of the torturer or force some action from the victim.
So you are actually torturing the imprisoned person, and not momentarily, but for the rest of, as they say, their miserable life.

See how you call it silly? People will refer to your argument as even sillier, because they will say, you are arguing, not from facts, but mere opinion... unsupported ideas.

Yes, I have killed insects in the past

And strictly speaking, I shouldn't have if I wanted to be 100% humane

But I'm not a Supreme Being who is morally perfect, but I still aspire to be as "humane" as possible

You think it's inhumane to protect society from dangerous predators, even if it means you have to kill the predators?
Well I guess we live n a world where it's important to realize there are "different strokes, for different folks".
 
Last edited:

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Those who accept God's means of salvation are saved. Those who reject it, perish. It's that simple. John 3:36.

OK, so that's a "yes" then, thank you. Now we've established that, let's move on...

I see being locked up in prison and sent to hell to be more of a withholding of pleasure than as an infliction of pain - for instance people are deprived of their freedoms

I think that Heaven would be a better place than Hell not because Hell is so terrible but because Heaven is so wonderful

I'd like to see all the evil people bunched together away from God and the good people, and I mean truly evil people

It would be wrong to torture them but I believe right to withhold the pleasures of being in Heaven

It has been said that "hell is other people" - imagine putting all the evil people together in a place where there are only evil people. They would deserve each other's company and I would be disinterested in how they would treat each other

You think it's inhumane to protect society from dangerous predators, even if it means you have to kill the predators?
I think it's inhumane to kill dangerous predators. I believe it is the primary function of the state to protect society from them and that this can be done by locking them up for a full life sentence, where they can spend their time with other evil people and be put out of circulation, away from the good people - which is what I believe God does in the afterlife: separate people - send the good people to a good place and the bad people to a bad place after judging them on their conduct in this life

And I can totally see why people may think that simply deleting the bad people would be a better option, I just don't think this happens as it goes against the notion of a humane God who said "thou shalt not kill"
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
You do realize that putting evil people together for eternity is not considered a punishment from their perspective, right?
Do you know how much fun they will have, in each other's company?
I could just imagine "Joke night", as they sit around telling jokes about the good people, and laughing their head off. HarHarHarHarrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Good point

I'd say that's an argument for solitary confinement

But I'd imagine they'd be more likely to brutalise each other

I'm sure God could devise a system where they don't sit about and trade stories and enjoy each other's company

I'm sure God could design a system that keeps them alive but which doesn't torture them or let them fraternise with each other
 

LightofTruth

Well-Known Member
It's the opposite of mortal

To be mortal is to have only a limited lifespan

Therefore to be immortal is to have an unlimited lifespan
If everyone has an immortal soul which lives forever, what determines whether their immortal soul goes to heaven or hell?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
.
OK, so that's a "yes" then, thank you. Now we've established that, let's move on...


I see being locked up in prison and sent to hell to be more of a withholding of pleasure than as an infliction of pain - for instance people are deprived of their freedoms

I think that Heaven would be a better place than Hell not because Hell is so terrible but because Heaven is so wonderful

I'd like to see all the evil people bunched together away from God and the good people, and I mean truly evil people

It would be wrong to torture them but I believe right to withhold the pleasures of being in Heaven

It has been said that "hell is other people" - imagine putting all the evil people together in a place where there are only evil people. They would deserve each other's company and I would be disinterested in how they would treat each other


I think it's inhumane to kill dangerous predators. I believe it is the primary function of the state to protect society from them and that this can be done by locking them up for a full life sentence, where they can spend their time with other evil people and be put out of circulation, away from the good people - which is what I believe God does in the afterlife: separate people - send the good people to a good place and the bad people to a bad place after judging them on their conduct in this life

And I can totally see why people may think that simply deleting the bad people would be a better option, I just don't think this happens as it goes against the notion of a humane God who said "thou shalt not kill"
Seems to me, you are more interested Eddi, in what you feel, or think. How about what God thinks?
I noticed you seemed to have sidestepped all my questions related to that. For example, you didn't respond to my question about whether you believe you are more righteous than God, nor a bunch of others, including whether one can be Christian, and not accept the accounts of the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah as actual events.

So at this point, you will have to show me from scripture, that what you are suggesting is even scriptural. For right now, you basically are saying, how you see things, is the way it ought to be.
The way I respond to that is by suggesting that that's similar to a person not believing the Bible, or wanting to write their own - creating their God, how they think he/she/it should be.
I have no problem with anyone who does not believe the Bible, but I would say, they should take it or leave it. That seems right to me. In other words, don't try to rewrite it, how one would like it to be. Don't try to make one's own God, and insert him in the Bible, while ripping out the parts one doesn't like

Either the Bible is true, or it isn't, and if it is not true, why try to hold on to it? What's so special about the Bible that a person does not want to let it go, but wants to rewrite it. That baffled me, but I understand why... from reading the Bible, and seeing it's truthfulness come to light.
The answer, from what I see, is tied up in these
(Matthew 24:11) . . .Many false prophets will arise and mislead many. . .
(2 Peter 2:1) . . .However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you. These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.
(1 John 4:1) . . .Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

We know that this is Satan's old tactic, from the very beginning - to lie, and mix a bit of truth with the lies, and he always uses people, to his advantage.
The apostle Paul clearly expressed this...
(2 Corinthians 11:12-15) 12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.

So that means pastors, preachers, people professing to be god believers, would be Satan's mouthpiece, and they will be his instrument to deceive or confuse people regarding truth.
This has become more clear to me, only within the past two years.
I have seen this more-so, here on RF, where persons claim to accept the Bible, but speak against it, sometimes in the most passionate way, so much so, that it gave me a picture of when Judas betrayed Jesus with a tender kiss.
It seems to me, persons who refer to the Biblical accounts as myth, are doing jut as Judas did.
So I think Satan is accomplishing his work of creating distrust in the Bible, by his mouthpieces.
I believe if one is using the Bible, one should speak based on what the Bible says, rather than their own ideas, which may be based on their emotions... and Satan can use those.
What do you think? Would you agree with me?

I am reminded of what apostle John said...
(1 John 2:18) Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour.
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
Good point

I'd say that's an argument for solitary confinement

But I'd imagine they'd be more likely to brutalise each other

I'm sure God could devise a system where they don't sit about and trade stories and enjoy each other's company

I'm sure God could design a system that keeps them alive but which doesn't torture them or let them fraternise with each other
What's brutality if you are immortal.
Have you seen the gladiator games.
Do you know the crowd would get larger, if people could enjoy watching gore forever, knowing that the one they are cheering for will return in the next match, after getting his head taken off? :(
Evil people enjoy what is bad, and if they can enjoy it forever, to them, "That's the life".
I'm sure they will thank God, while cursing him for being such a big idiot, to give them the life they wanted. :eek:
Not to mention the immoral sexual escapades. God would have to really blind himself.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
And I can totally see why people may think that simply deleting the bad people would be a better option, I just don't think this happens as it goes against the notion of a humane God who said "thou shalt not kill"
Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. "Thou should not murder", is what God said. To kill, and murder, are two different things.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
I noticed you seemed to have sidestepped all my questions related to that. For example, you didn't respond to my question about whether you believe you are more righteous than God, nor a bunch of others, including whether one can be Christian, and not accept the accounts of the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah as actual events.
OK, I'll answer them here: God is the most righteous being there is and he's the very definition of righteousness, hence nobody can be more righteous than him, or even equal him in that department

I'm agnostic about the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah being actual events, however I believe these accounts illustrate timeless truths and that we can speak as though they were true. Jesus's parables weren't true, but they conveyed timeless truths. Does that make him a liar? Of course not.

However, I believe the gospels are an actual historical record.

I believe if one is using the Bible, one should speak based on what the Bible says, rather than their own ideas, which may be based on their emotions... and Satan can use those.
What do you think? Would you agree with me?
Yes, I agree with you

But there will always be differences of opinion about what it means and we need to use reason (which God has given us) to determine what interpretation of the bible is best - so there will always be disagreements

What's brutality if you are immortal.
Have you seen the gladiator games.
Do you know the crowd would get larger, if people could enjoy watching gore forever, knowing that the one they are cheering for will return in the next match, after getting his head taken off? :(
Evil people enjoy what is bad, and if they can enjoy it forever, to them, "That's the life".
I'm sure they will thank God, while cursing him for being such a big idiot, to give them the life they wanted. :eek:
Not to mention the immoral sexual escapades. God would have to really blind himself.
I concede that you are right here...

And I've come to see that reason dictates that those who are not saved will be deleted - as opposed to tortured or somehow punished, I don't believe these theories add up on closer inspection

So I'm now in agreement with you over what happens to those who are not saved :)

However, I believe that people with sin can have those sins removed by Christ's sacrifice and so get into heaven if they repent and accept him as Lord and Saviour - I imagine only the truly evil people would be deleted

But I don't class irreligious people as being "truly evil" as on the whole they demonstratively aren't if you examine their conduct (although of course there are irreligious people who are truly evil!)
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
If you think you are fine, then please... I would be interested in hearing from you, why you think you are fine.

To make a very long story short, I think I am fine, in other words a good person, because I reject biblical laws and morality system. In my own moral system, a variance of secular humanism based on univeral prescriptivism and moral pragmatism, I would generally be considered a good person, thus completely fine.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
OK, I'll answer them here: God is the most righteous being there is and he's the very definition of righteousness, hence nobody can be more righteous than him, or even equal him in that department

I'm agnostic about the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah being actual events, however I believe these accounts illustrate timeless truths and that we can speak as though they were true. Jesus's parables weren't true, but they conveyed timeless truths. Does that make him a liar? Of course not.

However, I believe the gospels are an actual historical record.
Thanks for being honest in answering these questions, and for giving an honest answer, as well. I appreciate that.
I'm glad to know that you believe the gospels to be an actual historical record of Jesus life, and ministry. So unlike some who profess Christianity, you accept that the miracles did occur? That's good.

What though if Jesus and his followers were not agnostic about the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah accounts? Would you accept their testimony to be truthful?
Did Jesus give a parable about the flood, and Sodom and Gomorrah?
What about Peter...
(2 Peter 2:4-10) 4 Certainly God did not refrain from punishing the angels who sinned, but threw them into Tartarus, putting them in chains of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment. 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Gomorrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come. 7 And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them. 9 So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority.. . .

Paul...
(Hebrews 11:4-8) 4 By faith Abel offered God a sacrifice of greater worth than that of Cain, and through that faith he received the witness that he was righteous, for God approved his gifts, and although he died, he s
till speaks through his faith. 5 By faith Enoch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well. 6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him. 7 By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness that results from faith. 8 By faith Abraham, . . .

Jude...
(Jude 5-7)  5 Although you are fully aware of all of this, I want to remind you that Jehovah, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those not showing faith. 6 And the angels who did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place, he has reserved with eternal bonds in dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 In the same manner, Sodʹom and Gomorrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

Did they give parables?
Are these not historical accounts, which some apparently are trying to erase?
Whose side should Christians take, would you say? Do we not have valid reasons for agreeing with Paul's words to young Timothy.?
(2 Timothy 3:14-17) 14 You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them 15 and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Paul refers to the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures, as God-breathed, and truth. (1 Timothy 2:4-7)
Surely, the apostles are here confirming that Jesus did not lie when he said...
(Luke 17:26-30) 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

Yes, I agree with you

But there will always be differences of opinion about what it means and we need to use reason (which God has given us) to determine what interpretation of the bible is best - so there will always be disagreements
Yes. There will be differences in understanding, and we should be reasonably, and reason... from the scriptures. :)
We want to avoid reasoning from our own ideas, because then it becomes an unscripturally based opinion.

I concede that you are right here...

And I've come to see that reason dictates that those who are not saved will be deleted - as opposed to tortured or somehow punished, I don't believe these theories add up on closer inspection

So I'm now in agreement with you over what happens to those who are not saved :)

However, I believe that people with sin can have those sins removed by Christ's sacrifice and so get into heaven if they repent and accept him as Lord and Saviour - I imagine only the truly evil people would be deleted

But I don't class irreligious people as being "truly evil" as on the whole they demonstratively aren't if you examine their conduct (although of course there are irreligious people who are truly evil!)
Do you believe, or hold this view because of what I said?
Of course, I am glad to know that my reasoning somehow helped you to look at things in a different light, but I don't want you to agree with me, based on that, but rather, I am happy if you are now in agreement with what the Bible says, because you were reasoning from your own viewpoint.

This is what I was encouraging you to consider - that our emotions get in the way of accepting what is scriptural, and this is how Satan uses us to promote his untruths.
If instead, we accept what the Bible says, and then try to understand it, in light of what we learn from scripture, we will avoid being led astray by our own ideas, or someone else's.
I have seen this actually happen to people. They listen to someone's reasoning or idea, and say, "You know what, that makes sense." Someone else comes along with a "better" argument, and the person drops the other argument like a "hot potato", and runs with the "better" argument... until they meet an "even better" argument. Then they are confused. They don't know what to believe. Some stop believing. Why?
All because they relied on human wisdom, rather than
bible-icon.png


I think the first thing one needs to do is prove to themselves whether the Bible is truly God's word, or not.
Then they can be sure, tat they can rely on what it says, rather than what is discouraged here...
(Proverbs 3:5) Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And . do not rely on your own understanding.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
To make a very long story short, I think I am fine, in other words a good person, because I reject biblical laws and morality system. In my own moral system, a variance of secular humanism based on univeral prescriptivism and moral pragmatism, I would generally be considered a good person, thus completely fine.
Okay.
So you think you are fine, to whom... yourself, family, friends, God?
 
Top