YHWH allows abortions in some cases

[Kapalika]

I was hoping for Christians to weigh in too but I don't think I will since I don't think most know the word YHWH in the title ( again, really weird to me)

You are saying that some of the cases where a husband suspects his wife of cheating, she had become pregnant. Its definitely possible for this to happen, but there is no indication in the chapter that it must be the case. And I already mentioned that there is no indication in the verses that she needs to drink the water immediately after having been brought to the priest. So its entirely possible that even if she were to be pregnant, they would just wait for the child to be born and then give her the water to drink. There's really no reason to say that they wouldn't wait were that the case.


That's true it doesn't. But I think its a fairly safe assumption that if her stomach were to explode and her legs were to fall off her body, she's probably not going to live too much longer.

I suppose it could also just be the symptoms of it somehow making her barren. But I don't know. It seems odd that anyone would swell from drinking something.

Sure -- Jewish legal texts discuss exactly when the child is "alive" -- before that point, abortion is not the killing of a life, but the removal of part of what is the mother so in some cases it is allowed. When the fetus poses a threat to the mother's life (a status also extensively argued) abortion is allowed.

Exodus 21, verses 22 and 23 read:

"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].

But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life,"

the implication is that the miscarriage of the fetus is not a fatality, thus aborting the fetus at that point is not murder.

Some reading (there is a whole lot out there...)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/abortion.html
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html

Than you for the information, I will get to reading it shortly

 

[Tumah]

I suppose it could also just be the symptoms of it somehow making her barren. But I don't know. It seems odd that anyone would swell from drinking something

Maybe, but the part about her thighs falling off, seem a little more final.

 

[Kapalika]

Maybe, but the part about her thighs falling off, seem a little more final.

Maybe I missed something but in the translation I read it didn't say they fell off per se. More like "rotted". I assumed it meant she lost use of her legs during the miscarriage and became barren afterwards when I first read it. But idk anymore. Weird that it would be translated at miscarry then.

 

[Tumah]

Maybe I missed something but in the translation I read it didn't say they fell off per se. More like "rotted". I assumed it meant she lost use of her legs during the miscarriage and became barren afterwards when I first read it. But idk anymore. Weird that it would be translated at miscarry then.

I don't know. It says her thigh will fall. I guess it could be referring to the womb falling out and is just using a nicer word.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some reading (there is a whole lot out there...)

... including Daniel Schiff's excellent Abortion in Judaism.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If someone is Jewish or Christian, and is against abortions in the case of ******* children... they are contradicting the Bible and their god lol.
I really wish I could put this somewhere else, since I don't think it's really up for debate as it clearly states that the priest gives her a substance that is supposed to induce miscarriage if she was unfaithful.
You know, that thing called an abortion.
But alas I don't think this fits anywhere else on the forum.
I actually saw this in a video by DarkMatter2525, whom I was going to make a topic about soon on a similarish subject ('murder' ect).
I just had to look it up for myself, Bible Gateway was the first site that came up. I just can't see any way that the pro-life crowd could explain this away, seeing as most are Christian anyway.

First of all, there is a difference between 'abortion' and an 'execution'. Even under Christ parents are responsible for minor children - 1 Corinthians 7:14
Under the Constitution of the Mosaic Law contract, or covenant, adultery was a capital offence and could lead to an execution.
There is a line that is drawn: What is a High Crime in God's eyes is when the sole reason, or only reason, for an abortion is just to get rid of an unwanted child.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't know. It says her thigh will fall. I guess it could be referring to the womb falling out and is just using a nicer word.

.....or, referring to her reproductive organs wasting away, or loosing her fertility

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My point was, that if the woman died as @Tumah stated, so would the child.
However as far as Judaic understanding of abortion, is there anything from scriptures and/or tradition that you know of that could clarify the matter then about what is and what isn't considered abortion, and when it's acceptable and not?

If one deliberately had an abortion just for the sole purpose to get rid of an unwanted child that is what is a High Crime in the eyes of God.

 

[David M]

If one deliberately had an abortion just for the sole purpose to get rid of an unwanted child that is what is a High Crime in the eyes of God.

But killing a wanted unborn child is not a high crime in the eyes of God?

 

[Tumah]

.....or, referring to her reproductive organs wasting away, or loosing her fertility

There are other words for the reproductive organs.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was hoping for Christians to weigh in too but I don't think I will since I don't think most know the word YHWH in the title ( again, really weird to me)

Or it's because Christians aren't ancient Jews and so it doesn't apply to us.

The passage in question doesn't say anything about inducing abortion or that she is pregnant. It sounds more like a superstitious curse to make her infertile if she has been unfaithful. If she hasn't been unfaithful, then she will still be able to have children. Simple.

Here's what the Contemporary English Version of the Bible says about it:

18-22 Next, he will remove her veil, then hand her the barley offering, and say, “If you have been faithful to your husband, this water won’t harm you. But if you have been unfaithful, it will bring down the Lord’s curse—you will never be able to give birth to a child, and everyone will curse your name.”

And:


27 If the woman has been unfaithful, the water will immediately make her unable to have children, and she will be a curse among her people. 28 But if she is innocent, her body will not be harmed, and she will still be able to have children.

So, you're just incorrect.

 

[Parsimony]

Exodus 21, verses 22 and 23 read:

"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].

But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life,"

the implication is that the miscarriage of the fetus is not a fatality, thus aborting the fetus at that point is not murder.

Huh, now that is interesting. I've either never read these verses before or didn't understand their implications at the time. I'll definitely have to look into this matter some more.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sure -- Jewish legal texts discuss exactly when the child is "alive" -- before that point, abortion is not the killing of a life, but the removal of part of what is the mother so in some cases it is allowed. When the fetus poses a threat to the mother's life (a status also extensively argued) abortion is allowed.
Exodus 21, verses 22 and 23 read:
"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].
But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life,"
the implication is that the miscarriage of the fetus is not a fatality, thus aborting the fetus at that point is not murder.
l

What is a High Crime in God's eyes is when the sole purpose for an abortion is to get rid of an unwanted child.

If the premature does Not die - Exodus 21:22-23 - then the man would Not die, but if the premature dies due to his causing the miscarriage then he pays with his life.
In other words, If the premature dies then the man pays his life for a life. His life for the premature's life.

 

[sojourner]

See my above post, saying it says "swell" instead of "miscarriage" is kind of inconsequential as it makes no sense when taken into context with the rest of everything else.

Also why would the husband suspect she cheated if she wasn't pregnant?

It seems to me she is able to carry... as @Tumah said if she is pure... *because* there isn't a miscarriage.

And why would it swell? I figured it would just mean the same thing and why would her thigh "rot"? It looks like an ancient misunderstanding of what happens to the body during miscarriage to me.

"Thigh" doesn't mean thigh. It's a euphemism for genitalia.

 

[sojourner]

Oh, so it's "Bible Bashing" to point out something obviously ****ed up in the Bible?

The only thing ****ed up in this thread is your abysmally infantile interpretation of the passage in question. You don't have the first clue as to the spiritual implications in ancient Hebraic religious tradition of bearing children, purity, righteousness, marriage, etc. Naturally, you don't understand what the passage is saying. The bible isn't "condoning abortion." The passage is talking about the spiritual implications of infidelity.

 

[sojourner]

Now a real argument would be to get into the translations and Hebrew, and determine why it's translated differently.

A real argument lies in a reasonable exegesis of the text in question.

 

[columbus]

Sure -- Jewish legal texts discuss exactly when the child is "alive" -- before that point, abortion is not the killing of a life,

I'd be curious to know more about this.
My understanding is that the Israelites did not consider the fetus alive until s/he drew a breath. And that young children were chattel, essentially property of the father. So abortion would not have been a moral issue unless the father objected, and then it would be in property crime.
But none of this mattered because people simply didn't abort healthy fetuses. Children were valued too highly.
Am I misunderstanding?
Tom

 

[rosends]

What is a High Crime in God's eyes is when the sole purpose for an abortion is to get rid of an unwanted child.

If the premature does Not die - Exodus 21:22-23 - then the man would Not die, but if the premature dies due to his causing the miscarriage then he pays with his life.
In other words, If the premature dies then the man pays his life for a life. His life for the premature's life.

No, as the text says, if their is a miscarriage, but no death (that is, the fetus is lost but the woman doesn't die) then the penalty is financial because the loss is not of a life.

 

[rosends]

I'd be curious to know more about this.
My understanding is that the Israelites did not consider the fetus alive until s/he drew a breath. And that young children were chattel, essentially property of the father. So abortion would not have been a moral issue unless the father objected, and then it would be in property crime.
But none of this mattered because people simply didn't abort healthy fetuses. Children were valued too highly.
Am I misunderstanding?
Tom

the issue of "life" is very complex. There are at least 3 stages that I have learned about and I don't fully understand how they intertwine:

40 days in the womb
viability
(partial) birth

here is some info

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_abortion

 

[Kapalika]

The only thing ****ed up in this thread is your abysmally infantile interpretation of the passage in question. You don't have the first clue as to the spiritual implications in ancient Hebraic religious tradition of bearing children, purity, righteousness, marriage, etc. Naturally, you don't understand what the passage is saying. The bible isn't "condoning abortion." The passage is talking about the spiritual implications of infidelity.

[sarcasm] Because poisoning her as a punishment for violating a bronze age, draconian law is totally a spiritual implication. [/sarcasm]

Also, attacking me for having what you perceive as a poor understanding... when I made it clear later on in the topic that I was actually interested in having an authentic understanding is a very, very bad way to convince me of anything other than you're an ***.