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YHWH allows abortions in some cases

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5:11-31

So uh... ya.

If someone is Jewish or Christian, and is against abortions in the case of ******* children... they are contradicting the Bible and their god lol.

I really wish I could put this somewhere else, since I don't think it's really up for debate as it clearly states that the priest gives her a substance that is supposed to induce miscarriage if she was unfaithful.

You know, that thing called an abortion.

But alas I don't think this fits anywhere else on the forum.

I actually saw this in a video by DarkMatter2525, whom I was going to make a topic about soon on a similarish subject ('murder' ect).

I just had to look it up for myself, Bible Gateway was the first site that came up. I just can't see any way that the pro-life crowd could explain this away, seeing as most are Christian anyway.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Yeah, it actually does.

Numbers 5:19-21 (ERV)
19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die. And the Lord will cause your people to speak evil of you and curse you.’
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Yeah, it sure does.

Numbers 5:19-21 (ERV)
19 “Then the priest will make the woman promise to tell the truth and say to her: ‘If you have not slept with another man, and if you have not sinned against your husband while you were married to him, then this water that causes trouble will not hurt you. 20 But if you have sinned against your husband—if you had sexual relations with a man who is not your husband—then you are not pure. 21 If that is true, you will have much trouble when you drink this special water. You will not be able to have any children. And if you are pregnant now, your baby will die. And the Lord will cause your people to speak evil of you and curse you.’
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+5:11-31

So uh... ya.

If someone is Jewish or Christian, and is against abortions in the case of ******* children... they are contradicting the Bible and their god lol.

I really wish I could put this somewhere else, since I don't think it's really up for debate as it clearly states that the priest gives her a substance that is supposed to induce miscarriage if she was unfaithful.

You know, that thing called an abortion.

But alas I don't think this fits anywhere else on the forum.

I actually saw this in a video by DarkMatter2525, whom I was going to make a topic about soon.. I'll edit this post to link to that one too when I make it.

I just had to look it up for myself, Bible Gateway was the first site that came up. I just can't see any way that the pro-life crowd could explain this away, seeing as most are Christian anyway.
No sorry, not for Jews at least. We don't translate the words צבה and לצבות as the Christians do to mean "miscarry", we translate it to mean "swell". I assume the root is related to the word for toad צב which swells its stomach when it croaks.
Her stomach swells, no baby involved.
It also follows with verse 28 that says if she was pure, that she would get pregnant. The implication being that she isn't pregnant at the moment.

I'm not really sure where the Christians got the translation for "miscarry". Maybe from נצב which means to stand? I don't know. But I see the Septuagint also translates it as "swell".
 
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Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No sorry, not for Jews at least. We don't translate the words צבה and לצבות as the Christians do to mean "miscarry", we translate it to mean "swell". I assume the root is related to the word for toad צב which swells its stomach when it croaks.
Her stomach swells, no baby involved.
It also follows with verse 28 that says if she was pure, that she would get pregnant. The implication being that she isn't pregnant at the moment.

I'm not really sure where the Christians got the translation for "miscarry". Maybe from נצב which means to stand? I don't know. But I see the Septuagint also translates it as "swell".

KJV:

"And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."

But I would assume that this means that she is miscarriage in some way. If not, why the reference to the womb? Why and how is she cursed then if not a miscarriage? Why say if she is innocent she is "able to have" children? The strong implication is she can't have children if she was unfaithful. And in earlier verses it implies if the husband suspects the pregnancy wasn't from him.

Contextually the other word doesn't make sense.... unless you are saying the entire section is very badly translated on purpose. That's the only other explanation I can see. But I don't want to be the one to make that accusation against Christian translators.
 
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Thana

Lady
No sorry, not for Jews at least. We don't translate the words צבה and לצבות as the Christians do to mean "miscarry", we translate it to mean "swell". I assume the root is related to the word for toad צב which swells its stomach when it croaks.
Her stomach swells, no baby involved.
It also follows with verse 28 that says if she was pure, that she would get pregnant. The implication being that she isn't pregnant at the moment.

I'm not really sure where the Christians got the translation for "miscarry". Maybe from נצב which means to stand? I don't know. But I see the Septuagint also translates it as "swell".

My bible (The Amplified Bible) Says swell aswell. Guess it's (The OP's) a bad translation?

Numbers 5:22 - "and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.”
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
My bible (The Amplified Bible) Says swell aswell. Guess it's (The OP's) a bad translation?

Numbers 5:22 - "and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.”

See my above post, saying it says "swell" instead of "miscarriage" is kind of inconsequential as it makes no sense when taken into context with the rest of everything else.

Also why would the husband suspect she cheated if she wasn't pregnant?

It seems to me she is able to carry... as @Tumah said if she is pure... *because* there isn't a miscarriage.

And why would it swell? I figured it would just mean the same thing and why would her thigh "rot"? It looks like an ancient misunderstanding of what happens to the body during miscarriage to me.
 

Thana

Lady
See my above post, saying it says "swell" instead of "miscarriage" is kind of inconsequential as it makes no sense when taken into context with the rest of everything else.

Also why would the husband suspect she cheated if she wasn't pregnant?

It seems to me she is able to carry... as @Tumah said if she is pure... *because* there isn't a miscarriage.

And why would it swell? I figured it would just mean the same thing and why would her thigh "rot"? It looks like an ancient misunderstanding of what happens to the body during miscarriage to me.

Sounds like exactly what he said it was, A curse/sickness.

Maybe do a little research into it if you're actually interested.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I keep pointing out to Christians that abortion isn't immoral by scriptural standards.
It's immoral by my standards, but I am not a theist so they pretty much ignore me.
<sigh>
Tom
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sounds like exactly what he said it was, A curse/sickness.

Maybe do a little research into it if you're actually interested.

No, not really. At least enough people were convinced that it meant miscarry to translate it like that in many translations. So how about you try addressing my questions instead of dodging it.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
KJV:

"And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen."

But I would assume that this means that she is miscarriage in some way. If not, why the reference to the womb? Why and how is she cursed then if not a miscarriage? Why say if she is innocent she is "able to have" children? The strong implication is she can't have children if she was unfaithful. And in earlier verses it implies if the husband suspects the pregnancy wasn't from him.

Contextually the other word doesn't make sense.... unless you are saying the entire section is very badly translated on purpose. That's the only other explanation I can see. But I don't want to be the one to make that accusation against Christian translators.


According to what you are saying, she is only punished for being unfaithful if she gets pregnant by the guy? That doesn't seem very fair.
The curse is that she dies by having the area of her body (lower trunk upper thighs) that was used for the deed destroyed. That's why the verse references that area.

It also doesn't say "if she is able" to have children. It says, "And if she is not impure (ie unfaithful) and she is pure, she shall be cleaned (of charges) and she will have a child (lit. plant seed)". So its saying if she's cleared of charges, than her compensation (I assume for the false charges brought against her) is that she will have a child. It doesn't make any mention towards her ability to have children.

Basically what its saying is a man thinks his wife might be cheating on him, but he has no hard evidence (otherwise they'd be in court, not by the priest). So the priest gives her a magical potion that checks her out. If she was unfaithful, her body falls apart starting from where the deed occurred. If she's innocent, than she collects the compensation package of a sparkly new baby. I can also hear that this new baby will be helpful towards re-establishing a relationship between them. That's the whole story. The chapter makes no mention of her being pregnant or what happens if she is pregnant at this point. Its possible that as you suggest, the child would die too. And its equally as likely that they would wait to giver her the potion after the baby is born just in case. But whatever the case, no mention of that situation is made here.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to what you are saying, she is only punished for being unfaithful if she gets pregnant by the guy? That doesn't seem very fair.

Surely many of the times a husband suspected her of cheating, she was pregnant at a time that it might of not been him? Such a death would kill the child. No where in there is there any exception or provision for when she is with a child, but there *are* lines where it says if she is innocent she will 'be able to carry'.

And it never actually says it kills her, but if that is the position you want to take, then that will necessarily kill the unborn child.

Perhaps we should as the Admins to create a Juvenile Bible-Bashing DIR?

Oh, so it's "Bible Bashing" to point out something obviously ****ed up in the Bible?

How so mature of you to to take a perfectly normal conclusion.. .that since what I read clearly stated it was a miscarriage, that it was a miscarriage and that that is what it said. Since you know, that's what I read... and accuse me of being Juvenile for simply pointing out how absurd it would be to argue against it.


Why do you even come to this forum if all you do is act smug and arrogant 90% of the time without actually contributing anything to the discussion? You're basically just a troll.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@ entire topic...

God forbid I actually care about if I'm saying something wrong or not and would actually be okay with admitting I'm wrong if someone proves to me that I am. And God forbid someone actually take me up on that.

Now a real argument would be to get into the translations and Hebrew, and determine why it's translated differently.

Maybe my topic was poorly titled, since I mostly had pro-life Christians in mind that I wanted to see respond. But I think most of the Christian Right are too ignorant to know their own god's name.

However I am actually glad I titled it like this, as I hope someone really well versed in Hebrew and/or Bible translations could shed light on why they are translated differently and what it really means. A kind of 'filter' so to speak for those who actually know what YHWH means. If my argument is actually flawed, I'd really like to know so I won't make the mistake of using it again in the future.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
While I think that the Judaic understanding of abortion is complex and that Jewish law has a particular view of what is and is not abortion, and when abortion may or may not be allowed, these verses, which deal with a woman who is not necessarily pregnant, can not be taken as any comment on termination of pregnancy. If the conclusion wants to be drawn that a husband's suspicions might ALSO exist where she is pregnant and therefore, the child would be aborted and the text must then be allowing abortion then that conclusion would be drawn as distinct from Jewish law and understanding.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
While I think that the Judaic understanding of abortion is complex and that Jewish law has a particular view of what is and is not abortion, and when abortion may or may not be allowed, these verses, which deal with a woman who is not necessarily pregnant, can not be taken as any comment on termination of pregnancy. If the conclusion wants to be drawn that a husband's suspicions might ALSO exist where she is pregnant and therefore, the child would be aborted and the text must then be allowing abortion then that conclusion would be drawn as distinct from Jewish law and understanding.

My point was, that if the woman died as @Tumah stated, so would the child.

However as far as Judaic understanding of abortion, is there anything from scriptures and/or tradition that you know of that could clarify the matter then about what is and what isn't considered abortion, and when it's acceptable and not?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
My point was, that if the woman died as @Tumah stated, so would the child.

However as far as Judaic understanding of abortion, is there anything from scriptures and/or tradition that you know of that could clarify the matter then about what is and what isn't considered abortion, and when it's acceptable and not?
Sure -- Jewish legal texts discuss exactly when the child is "alive" -- before that point, abortion is not the killing of a life, but the removal of part of what is the mother so in some cases it is allowed. When the fetus poses a threat to the mother's life (a status also extensively argued) abortion is allowed.

Exodus 21, verses 22 and 23 read:

"And should men quarrel and hit a pregnant woman, and she miscarries but there is no fatality, he shall surely be punished, when the woman's husband makes demands of him, and he shall give [restitution] according to the judges' [orders].

But if there is a fatality, you shall give a life for a life,"

the implication is that the miscarriage of the fetus is not a fatality, thus aborting the fetus at that point is not murder.

Some reading (there is a whole lot out there...)
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/abortion.html
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48954946.html
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Surely many of the times a husband suspected her of cheating, she was pregnant at a time that it might of not been him? Such a death would kill the child. No where in there is there any exception or provision for when she is with a child, but there *are* lines where it says if she is innocent she will 'be able to carry'.
You are saying that some of the cases where a husband suspects his wife of cheating, she had become pregnant. Its definitely possible for this to happen, but there is no indication in the chapter that it must be the case. And I already mentioned that there is no indication in the verses that she needs to drink the water immediately after having been brought to the priest. So its entirely possible that even if she were to be pregnant, they would just wait for the child to be born and then give her the water to drink. There's really no reason to say that they wouldn't wait were that the case.

And it never actually says it kills her, but if that is the position you want to take, then that will necessarily kill the unborn child.
That's true it doesn't. But I think its a fairly safe assumption that if her stomach were to explode and her legs were to fall off her body, she's probably not going to live too much longer.
 
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