Yemeni child bride dies after internal bleeding on marriage night

[crossfire]

It is extremely unlikely that a ten year old is sufficiently mature and informed about the world and her rights that she is able to give informed consent to a binding union with another person.

In much the same way that we could not expect her to be capable of giving informed consent to form a contract for renovating her home (had ownership somehow passed into her hands) or to be able to sell one of her kidneys, heck of even buying a mobile phone with a plan.

At ten years of age one is highly unlikely to be capable of informed consent for MOST contractual arrangements, and marriage is a prolonged and onerous contract (particularly islamic marriage for a woman in terms of expectations, not in terms necessarily of hardship) with extremely high barriers to contract nullification

Do children who marry at 10 years of age even get an opportunity for education, in order that they may become informed?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Education is not exactly something to be encouraged for those that are intended to be subject (regardless of their age).

Which is common to areas where marrying children is allowed.

 

[RedJamaX]

Let me make one thing clear.
If the woman was pressured or coerced into saying 'yes' and/or didn't actually comprehend what this answer entailed, then it can't be said that informed consent was given.

I highly doubt a 8 or 10 years old girl comprehends what it actually means to get married, even more in a islamic country. I doubt even more that when it happens it is not because the family pressured the child into accepting it.

I'm so frustrated, it's very difficult to articulate many of the points you have been able to lay out so clearly. I don;t think I've seen any of your posts regarding that topic that I do "not" agree with.

 

[farouk]

This "would" be a good point, except when you compare Islam to other religions. Christianity is the closest in our documented history to come to the atrocious levels of violence that is perpetuated by Islam. The true measure of how destructive a religion can be is a level that is set by it's extremists. A fundamentalist Jane wears a veil over their mouths to prevent from killing a bug accidentally. Fundamentalist Christians have recently killed abortion clinic doctors, black people and homosexuals based on their scripture. In the past they started wars and burned people alive. Now, there are certainly many many cases of sexual abuse being performed by people of the Christian faith, but I have never EVER heard one line of scripture being used to back it up... Those are cases of pedophiles who happen to be Christian.

And that "would" apply to Islam, except they actually have scripture to defend their act of pedophilia. They kill people and burn down buildings because of a cartoon. The decapitate children. They stone women to death for any act that she might find her own pleasure, but allow men to get a two hour marriage so they can have sex with a slave prostitute.

Islam is by far the worst form of religion to have ever shown is ugly face (edited) in recent history. If we read about these things as having happened 2,000, 1,000, or even 500 years ago, we could chock it up to ignorance of ridiculous traditions... But these things happen NOW, TODAY... and in countries that have already been through an industrial age and have even embraced the information age... There is NO justification for this type of barbaric social construct.

Peace
Lets put things in clear perpective so you don't have any misunderstanding.
In Islam there is no such a thing as moderates,conservatives,fundamentalist or whatever...In Islam we are one brotherhood.Don't read too much Western propaganda its just not good for the brain.Read between the lines and you will get the true facts.In Islam a cartoon of any Prophet,be it Muhammad,Moses or Jesus(peace and blessings be upon them all),is an attack on my religion.If any one attacks then they must expect an emotional response.Now who do you blame.the religion of Islam or the instigators.So far as your pedophilia and ignorance of ridiculous traditions comment goes its all inside your tunnell of vision.We in Islam have our own way of life inside our own tunnell vision and we will definately not change it for your immoral and barbaric tunnell of vision.

Peace
Farouk

 

[Galen.Iksnudnard]

Peace
Don't read too much Western propaganda its just not good for the brain.Read between the lines and you will get the true facts.

Ironic how you whine and moan about "western propaganda" when you are here to spread religious propaganda.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Instigators being those who draw a cartoon/write a book or those clerics who decided that was worthy of killing people (who are not muslim, not in muslim countries and not bound by muslim laws) so decided to whip up a frenzy among those elements of their faithful they thought could be brought to a murderous rage (including fabricating additional cartoons purely for the desire to cause outrage)?

And pedophilia is a huge problem world wide across different religions and the non-religious as has been noted time and time again in this thread. There are however significant problems when a culture and/or religious tradition seem to condone (or promote - which I do not think Islam does) such behaviour under certain circumstances, or looks to ensure those circumstances are brought about. There are very real and very complex (it is not a matter of islam = pedophilia or even islam=bad) issues with relation to this, however simply said there are numerous very significant factors that are not helped by the way certain islamic practices are implemented in some countries and cultures that act to facilitate or exacerbate a very real and very horrible problem - and it is valid to discuss those factors.

 

[farouk]

Or maybe you ignored people's answers. I was 10 when I reached puberty and my body was NOT like of an adult's. There's no way that I could have been married to an adult and have sex with them. A grown man's part is way too big and sex is something that require emotional and mental maturity too.

What is your answer to this? It comes from personal experience so I'm not talking out of nowhere.

Your wife is lucky that she was married to a young boy and not someone 5 times her age, like the poor Yemeni child bride was. I still think it's too much responsibility for children though and that education is the most important thing.

Peace
Note there was no intention of ignoring your reply but i did mention that no intellectual person answered my question and you included.
So far as your comments on your body goes i want you understand that no 2 woman are the same.Each human body reacts differently.So if you had an unusual experience then that does not mean my wife had to go through the same.Note at 20 i was a man and not a boy and God gave me the wisdom on how to handle a woman of 10 and that is the difference between a man and an animal.Note you have a right to express your opinion but that does not give you the right in stopping a 10 year old woman marrying a man of her choice.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Horrorble]

Peace
Yes.My wife did not die because i was a man who understood how to handle a woman.So far as dolls is concerned i know of 30year old woman play and sleep with dolls and teddy bears.Now does that make them children.Remember what your heart agree with is good for you and that does not mean everyone should follow your heart.If a 10 year boy has reached his manhood and he marries a 40year old woman then let it be.Why would that envy your heart?
Peace
farouk

How old were you? And how old was your wife?

 

[Pastek]

Peace
I question to you
Is it moral or immoral to marry a woman 10 years old?
Keep in mind that all Islamic marriages requires the consent of both parties.In other words there is no force on either party.
Peace
Farouk

I'm against it, and i think that in the 21st century it's immoral.

I don't care if she or her family is ok, it's the responsability of the family to do anything to protect her and let her go to school if it's possible.

When you have a child (boy or girl) you must send him to school, and if you can't, you don't sell him (or marry him if you prefer) at a very young age.

If you make children, that's not to get rid of them after 8 or 10 years.
Don't do children if it's just to marry them. They are humans, they are gifts from God.

 

[Horrorble]

Peace
Note there was no intention of ignoring your reply but i did mention that no intellectual person answered my question and you included.
So far as your comments on your body goes i want you understand that no 2 woman are the same.Each human body reacts differently.So if you had an unusual experience then that does not mean my wife had to go through the same.Note at 20 i was a man and not a boy and God gave me the wisdom on how to handle a woman of 10 and that is the difference between a man and an animal.Note you have a right to express your opinion but that does not give you the right in stopping a 10 year old woman marrying a man of her choice.
Peace
Farouk

A 10 year old is not a woman

 

[farouk]

What did I say that makes you think I am "living in my tunnel vision"? Please do not confuse my comment with those comments from others; I'm not even trying to have a conversation about the morality of young marriage or whether there is a 'right' or 'wrong' age. I'm not taking about that at all. My objection to using divorce rate as evidence would be the same if all of your children and your wife got married in their 40s. I still find divorce rate to be irrelevant.​

There are so many other factors for why a couple might not get divorced other than their marriage being 'successful'. Cultural peer pressure is one of them. If a person is in a society where divorce is stigmatized, they might have a terrible, unhappy marriage that is completely unsuccessful and still not get divorced. They might have a religious objection to the concept of divorce. There might be kids involved that skew things. Or, they might just not want to get divorced. I know couples that have been married for forty-odd years, have never considered divorce, but certainly are not in 'successful' marriages because neither of them are truly happy in their marriage.​

Staying married and not getting a divorce doesn't make the marriage happy and successful.​

Peace
Sorry if i said any thing that upset you.
Note so far as divorce goes, it is my opinion,that the rate being high in western countries is a direct result of late marriages.Again its just my opinion and getting my children married at an early age my family, from the time of my great grand parents, has achieved a remarkable success rate and i am proud to keep that going.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Horrorble]

Peace
Sorry if i said any thing that upset you.
Note so far as divorce goes, it is my opinion,that the rate being high in western countries is a direct result of late marriages.Again its just my opinion and getting my children married at an early age my family, from the time of my great grand parents, has achieved a remarkable success rate and i am proud to keep that going.
Peace
Farouk

Maybe because in the west we don't have such a taboo around women leaving their husbands.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Peace
So far not a single member could give me direct answer to my question.So much for intellect.
I married my wife at the age of 10.I don't have any problem in my marriage.I come from a very wealthy family and so does my wife.It seems some members regard my marriage as immoral others regard me as an pedophile.What a sham.How ridiculous can you get?You are definately living in glass house.Its about time that you wake up.Get out of your glass homes and start breathing fresh air because it will do a whole lot of good to your brains.
The difficulty in answering my question makes it quite obvious that your agenda is nothing but throwing stones.If you born inside your tunnel vision then its about time that you learn to respect others that are in their own tunnel.My marriage to my wife is very successful and so is all my children.The divorce rate in my family is zero and there is no ways that i am going to change my way of life to another way of life that will never understand the meaning of the word morality.
Now stop your barbaric attacks on my marriage.
Peace
Farouk

Sorry Farouk, just because nobody got divorced, doesn't mean they are happy in the marriage. I know plenty of unhappily married people.

 

[ohhcuppycakee]

Peace
I question to you
Is it moral or immoral to marry a woman 10 years old?
Keep in mind that all Islamic marriages requires the consent of both parties.In other words there is no force on either party.
Peace
Farouk

At ten years old a child is still in elementary school. It's not possible to truly consent to anything at such a young age. Please don't promote this crap. We don't live in the 7th century when people died young. Such marriages are not beneficial nor necessary.

 

[Alceste]

Peace
I question to you
Is it moral or immoral to marry a woman 10 years old?
Keep in mind that all Islamic marriages requires the consent of both parties.In other words there is no force on either party.
Peace
Farouk

Consent is not enough, it must be informed consent, and not given under any duress or threat.

A child cannot give informed consent, and child brides are subjected to extreme pressure from their families, for example "do it or we'll kill you" as you heard in the video if you watched it.

It is morally wrong, in my view. Absolutely backwards and wrong, and very dangerous for girls. The bodies of children are not fully equipped for sex and childbearing. Your wife was lucky, but there is truly a far higher risk of death and permanent injury during childbirth for pregnant children.

 

[Alceste]

Peace
Sorry if i said any thing that upset you.
Note so far as divorce goes, it is my opinion,that the rate being high in western countries is a direct result of late marriages.Again its just my opinion and getting my children married at an early age my family, from the time of my great grand parents, has achieved a remarkable success rate and i am proud to keep that going.
Peace
Farouk

You sound as though you think divorce is bad. It isn't bad if your partner beats or rapes you. Then it's pretty good!

 

[outhouse]

Peace
I question to you
Is it moral or immoral to marry a woman 10 years old?
Keep in mind that all Islamic marriages requires the consent of both parties.In other words there is no force on either party.
Peace
Farouk

It is not moral, she is still a child and its very wrong.


In civilized countries it is illegal for good reasons.

 

[underthesun]

Peace
Sorry if i said any thing that upset you.
Note so far as divorce goes, it is my opinion,that the rate being high in western countries is a direct result of late marriages.Again its just my opinion and getting my children married at an early age my family, from the time of my great grand parents, has achieved a remarkable success rate and i am proud to keep that going.
Peace
Farouk​

You didn't offend me; it's alright. I just wanted to make sure you weren't misunderstanding what I was saying.

I am definitely not saying that your family hasn't had successful marriages. Obviously, I do not know your family, so I have no reason to assume that is the case. If everyone in your family is very happily married, then I am happy for all of you.

My opinion is a little bit different than yours, on the reason the divorce rate in western countries is higher. I don't think it has to do with late marriages, because if you actually look a the breakdown of different age groups and divorces, it is usually those that marry younger that have higher divorce rates. In western countries. But I think the real reason that the rate is higher is because of a mixture of things, from the way that marriage isn't viewed as nearly as big of a deal anymore than it should be, to the simple fact that it is now more socially acceptable to get a divorce, so people are more willing to end a marriage that they aren't happy with. I think in the past, a lot of people stuck with marriages they were unhappy with only because they felt there wasn't a real alternative.​

 

[outhouse]

In Islam there is no such a thing as moderates,conservatives,fundamentalist or whatever...In Islam we are one brotherhood.

Then you condone terrorism?


Well your wrong, and why or what I don't care, we don't need your excuses or justification.


If you knew the guy next to you was making bombs, would you say, peace be with you?

 

[outhouse]

.Don't read too much Western propaganda its just not good for the brain

Does this mean freedom, education and knowledge, are all bad things?


We don't need western propaganda, your post are exposing the issues at hand.