WTF Ukraine?

[Drolefille]

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Israeli media.

Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.

Donetsk is the site of an "anti-terrorist" operation by the Ukraine government, which has moved military columns into the region to force out militants who are demanding a referendum be held on joining Russia.

The leaflets bore the name of Denis Pushilin, who identified himself as chairman of "Donetsk's temporary government," and were distributed near the Donetsk synagogue and other areas, according to the report.

Pushilin acknowledged that flyers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk, but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported.

So... yes they were real flyers but "oh I don't know know anything about them."

WTF.

 

[Copernicus]

Why would you believe this story? It is possible that Pushilin's organization did distribute them. Antisemitism is rampant among Ukrainian and Russian nationalists, and it has been for many generations. OTOH, this is exactly the kind of misinformation campaign that Putin's FSB would concoct in order to stir up hatred and confusion. Putin is seeking to destabilize eastern Ukraine so that he has an excuse to invade.

 

[Drolefille]

Why would you believe this story? It is possible that Pushilin's organization did distribute them. Antisemitism is rampant among Ukrainian and Russian nationalists, and it has been for many generations. OTOH, this is exactly the kind of misinformation campaign that Putin's FSB would concoct in order to stir up hatred and confusion. Putin is seeking to destabilize eastern Ukraine so that he has an excuse to invade.

And if you'll note in the story, you'll see it discusses how Russia is using fears of Anti-semitism in the region. And yet the flyers are real. That's why I believe the story.

Of course, if it's totally fake and the dude whose name is on them didn't really say that his organization sent them out, I'll be quite pleased to be wrong.

 

[Copernicus]

And if you'll note in the story, you'll see it discusses how Russia is using fears of Anti-semitism in the region. And yet the flyers are real. That's why I believe the story.

Of course, if it's totally fake and the dude whose name is on them didn't really say that his organization sent them out, I'll be quite pleased to be wrong.

As I said, I don't know whether the flyers were issued by Ukrainian or Russian nationalists. The word "disinformation" comes from Russian, and it is an old KGB technique for provoking confusion and conflict in a targeted group of people. If Russian provocateurs did not issue those leaflets, then Ukrainian nationalists were helping them to achieve their goal. Right now, the last thing the Ukrainian government wants is to stir up anger and resentment. Hence, I suspect it is more likely an FSB provocation than a real campaign to make Jews register. Don't forget that Putin is trying to make it look like the pro-Nazi fascists have taken control of the Ukrainian government. There is very little evidence of that, but this plays to his theme.

 

[Drolefille]

As I said, I don't know whether the flyers were issued by Ukrainian or Russian nationalists. The word "disinformation" comes from Russian, and it is an old KGB technique for provoking confusion and conflict in a targeted group of people. If Russian provocateurs did not issue those leaflets, then Ukrainian nationalists were helping them to achieve their goal. Right now, the last thing the Ukrainian government wants is to stir up anger and resentment. Hence, I suspect it is more likely an FSB provocation than a real campaign to make Jews register. Don't forget that Putin is trying to make it look like the pro-Nazi fascists have taken control of the Ukrainian government. There is very little evidence of that, but this plays to his theme.

I agree that no one was going to make Jews register.

Thad doesn't make this magically not disgusting. Terrorizing a people doesn't require that you follow through all the time, they just have to believe you might.

And I'd call this terrorizing.

 

[LuisDantas]

What worries me most is that if the flyers exist at all, this is a strong indication that Russia itself has not let go of anti-semitism.

 

[Drolefille]

What worries me most is that if the flyers exist at all, this is a strong indication that Russia itself has not let go of anti-semitism.

Exactly. The level of "not OK" here overwhelms the "they're doing it for attention."

 

[Copernicus]

What worries me most is that if the flyers exist at all, this is a strong indication that Russia itself has not let go of anti-semitism.

Anyone who visits Russia can see that. They distinguish between "nationality" and "citizenship" on their passports. There are very strong feelings of ethnic identity in that area of the world. Jews are typically considered a distinct "nationality", although I'm not sure what the most recent practices are. Putin himself is a very strong Russian nationalist, and I suspect that he is about as antisemitic as Nixon was. When I was last in Russia in 1997, one of my contacts there was Jewish, and he did get hassled for it.

One very interesting fact about Putin recently was his 4-hour TV interview, in which he opined that "God knows" why the Bolsheviks handed what is now eastern Ukraine to the Ukrainian state. Now, Russia itself is a federation of a great many different ethnic groups, not just Russian. There is a controversy there over the falling birth rate among ethnic Russians, the concern being that non-Russians will ultimately outnumber Russians. (This is similar to the concern in the US that ethnic white Protestants are becoming overwhelmed by other ethnic minorities.)

So, basically, Putin's perspective was that Russian ethnics were the dominant group in the early Soviet Union, and he was puzzled as to why the Soviet Union, nominally egalitarian with respect to ethnic groups, would hand ethnic Russian regions off to a different region dominated by a different "tribe", so to speak. I think that he is right that the CPSU was always Russian-dominant, but the official line was that "everyone is equal". I see the Bolshevik move as fairly obvious--an attempt to water down the ethnic dominance of Ukrainians in that part of the country.

Hitler's vision was to shift ethnic Slavs to the east and create "Lebensraum" for ethnic Germans. Stalin had a similar, but opposite, vision. So he shifted the boundaries of Poland to the west, and the boundary of Ukraine along with it. The formerly Polish-dominant city of Lwow, became the Ukrainian-dominant city of Lviv. Parts of East Germany were incorporated into Poland. Jews were usually caught in the middle of these ethnic rivalries, and they are still being caught in the middle.