Would you call Nature sexist?

[Iman]

Whatever they try to be isn't relevant to the picture I had painted; it's in what we observe that "sexism" is given leave to enter the picture. It's also given leave, in the same manner, to be nowhere in the picture.

I like this view of the big picture. However, the facts necessitate a closer view of the man/woman dichotomy. They have to organize their relationship in a way that helps each of them thrive and alow the family unit and society at large to succeed. Sexism may be in the details.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I blame patriarchy. :run:

 

[Caladan]

I blame patriarchy. :run:

Blaspheming Amazonian! your modernity will be the downfall of the natural order!

 

[fantome profane]

So all these episodes of discrimination and abuse against women throughout history are completely man-made?

The vast majority yes, the rest would be examples of women discriminating against women. To say that nature discriminates makes no sense. Nature does not make conscious choices. No conscious choice, no discrimination. Reality is what reality is. If human beings take advantage of something in order to discriminate against someone then it is still human beings doing the discrimination.

Is nature “heightist” by not allowing short people to reach things on the top shelf?

 

[painted wolf]

After all, women suffer more pain during pregnancy, and childbirth.

Why are men such weenies when it comes to pain?
My people thought of women as the ultimate warriors, they were able to make men look like the weenies they are, in the pain department.

They have monthly cycles that affect their hormonal balance,

So do men, you just don't have any external symptoms. And honestly the horror stories you hear about PMS are just that... stories. The majority of women you would never know were on their cycle unless they mentioned it.
Additionally cultural expectation plays a big part in this... grow up thinking its going to be terrible and it will be.

and they are more physically attached to their children during infancy at least.

I fail to see the problem with this... children are a joy not a burden.

Is that a sexist assessment or are these characteristics essential for the human society and she plays a different though equally important role in preserving and developing the status of the human race.

I'm going to go with sexist.

Also has her physical vulnerabilty been the reason for her second class status throughout history in most societies?

You've never met a First Nations woman have you.
Women have a lot of power in native cultures, even it most of it is behind the scenes.

With more elements of power in the modern sense, how do you see the prospects of her gaining a truly equal status to man?

I had better be treated with equal status... or I'm kicking someones arse and taking his name.

wa:do

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

Women are still victims of a pay gap for the same work, domestic abuse, sexual harrassment and exploitation. Although the laws in most western societies overcame many of the isms of disadvantage, the social isms are still alive and well.

I think you should differ between rights of equality and certain behavioural patterns of mankind.

Women have the same rights as men. That does not automatically mean that everybody must treat them like men or that men must be treated like women.

Fact is that if i am hiring people i choose those i like and pay what i see as the minimum wage that is needed to hire them.
Generally i can pay a woman a lower amount to get her to do the job.
So i do that.

Just as i (generally) can pay MEN a lower wage if their character is that of a less demanding type. Men generally demand more money, women normally think that somewhat will see their labour and act accordingly. Thats a bogus idea. Just as of course men dont get pregnant, women do.

Anyway .... if women allow this to happen to them, then it will.
This has nothing to do with rights concerning equality in my view.

Abuse, sexual harassement are crimes .. they do not fit in the equality discussion in my view. Males are also vicitims of such crimes, although in absolute numbers one may claim they are to a lesser extend.

Exploitation ... well in my view (sorry to be so harsh) i think that any MATURE, SANE person which is NOT in DIRE need for something can't be exploited.
In all other cases it is a crime anyway and again thus doesnt fit into the equality discussion.

However .. i wonder what this has to do with "nature" ?

 

[Iman]

Why are men such weenies when it comes to pain?
My people thought of women as the ultimate warriors, they were able to make men look like the weenies they are, in the pain department.

So do men, you just don't have any external symptoms. And honestly the horror stories you hear about PMS are just that... stories. The majority of women you would never know were on their cycle unless they mentioned it.
Additionally cultural expectation plays a big part in this... grow up thinking its going to be terrible and it will be.

I fail to see the problem with this... children are a joy not a burden.

I'm going to go with sexist.

You've never met a First Nations woman have you.
Women have a lot of power in native cultures, even it most of it is behind the scenes.

I had better be treated with equal status... or I'm kicking someones arse and taking his name.

wa:do

I like your attitude. I would like to learn more about women in native cultures, and what factors elevate a woman's status in native societies, is it age, children, or is it absolute just for carrying out the usual role of a female in that culture.

 

[Iman]

The vast majority yes, the rest would be examples of women discriminating against women. To say that nature discriminates makes no sense. Nature does not make conscious choices. No conscious choice, no discrimination. Reality is what reality is. If human beings take advantage of something in order to discriminate against someone then it is still human beings doing the discrimination.

Is nature “heightist” by not allowing short people to reach things on the top shelf?

Even I, who believe in a God that directs nature, don't think there are any innate biases against women, but certainly many challenges that need to be well handled by both men and women to make life together worth living.

 

[Charity]

After all, women suffer more pain during pregnancy, and childbirth. They have monthly cycles that affect their hormonal balance, and they are more physically attached to their children during infancy at least. Is that a sexist assessment or are these characteristics essential for the human society and she plays a different though equally important role in preserving and developing the status of the human race. Also has her physical vulnerabilty been the reason for her second class status throughout history in most societies? With more elements of power in the modern sense, how do you see the prospects of her gaining a truly equal status to man?

I don't think nature can be considered sexist since it "is no respector of persons" or location.
I think women always had equal status as long as they use their head as well as their body to obtain their goals....It's the nature for the most powerful of men to lose their heads and ability to reason when a woman uses the gifts that nature has provided. Even Kings have lost their kingdom because of "the weaker sex" or has nature just deceived us into thinking that women are not capable of power?...

 

[fantome profane]

Even I, who believe in a God that directs nature, don't think there are any innate biases against women, but certainly many challenges that need to be well handled by both men and women to make life together worth living.

If there is a point here I have to say I have honestly missed it. Are you trying to say that men and women should be treated differently because of natural differences? If this is the case I would like some examples of different situations.

Is this by any chance about same sex relationships or am I reading to much into this post? Seriously, I am lost.

 

[painted wolf]

I like your attitude. I would like to learn more about women in native cultures, and what factors elevate a woman's status in native societies, is it age, children, or is it absolute just for carrying out the usual role of a female in that culture.

Women were respected for many of the same reasons men were... taking good care of their families, being wise and giving good advice. Being skilled in crafts and so on.
Men would not insult a woman for being weak, generally women did all the heavy work around the settlements. Hauling wood and so forth.
By and large they also owned everything, so you didn't want to treat her badly or you would find yourself homeless real quick. And face the wrath of her family.
In other cultures she could just decide to leave and go somewhere else... divorce was not a problem.

wa:do

 

[BucephalusBB]

also, women are more beautifull, I know tons of women who also see beauty in other women and I know tons of men who just can't see the beauty of a man

 

[Inky]

Each sex has its own strengths and weaknesses. Women get pregnant, have periods and on average aren't as physically strong. Men have higher levels of testosterone which creates a greater inclination toward risk-taking and violence (although culture plays a part in that too), making them more likely to die an early death. Even without the accidents and violence, men have shorter lifespans. So, no, I don't think men have an advantage in the body department, especially in a modern society where strength is irrelevant most of the time. I do think that if historically women were the dominant gender, we'd be pointing out all the supposed flaws in men's bodies as an explanation for sexism, rather than the other way around.

 

[Iman]

I don't think nature can be considered sexist since it "is no respector of persons" or location.
I think women always had equal status as long as they use their head as well as their body to obtain their goals....It's the nature for the most powerful of men to lose their heads and ability to reason when a woman uses the gifts that nature has provided. Even Kings have lost their kingdom because of "the weaker sex" or has nature just deceived us into thinking that women are not capable of power?...

I think you are right in stating that women need to fully realize their potential. They need to tap their hidden resources and use them wisely to attain their goals. I often feel, however, that being a female is walking a tight rope, in the sense that you do want to preserve your femininity, values and self respect, but also be a considerable decision maker and a fully effective and engaged figure in public life. All of that, in my opinion, takes a lot of skill and balance. Men also need that, but women need it more. Men don't seem to have much of a problem being taken seriously, while women seem to have to work hard for it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think you are right in stating that women need to fully realize their potential. They need to tap their hidden resources and use them wisely to attain their goals. I often feel, however, that being a female is walking a tight rope, in the sense that you do want to preserve your femininity, values and self respect, but also be a considerable decision maker and a fully effective and engaged figure in public life. All of that, in my opinion, takes a lot of skill and balance. Men also need that, but women need it more. Men don't seem to have much of a problem being taken seriously, while women seem to have to work hard for it.

It's cultural, darling.

My philosophy is this regarding dealing with patriarchy and it's abuses - I'm going to speak my mind and flaunt my stuff. If anyone has a problem with it, it's their problem, not mine.

But, sure, we still have a ways to go to find the general respect we'd like. I don't want to let that get me down, though. I'll still speak my mind and flaunt my stuff with no shame or regret.

 

[Iman]

Each sex has its own strengths and weaknesses. Women get pregnant, have periods and on average aren't as physically strong. Men have higher levels of testosterone which creates a greater inclination toward risk-taking and violence (although culture plays a part in that too), making them more likely to die an early death. Even without the accidents and violence, men have shorter lifespans. So, no, I don't think men have an advantage in the body department, especially in a modern society where strength is irrelevant most of the time. I do think that if historically women were the dominant gender, we'd be pointing out all the supposed flaws in men's bodies as an explanation for sexism, rather than the other way around.

I agree that the standards for power have changed, but historically there must be a reason why men seemed to dominate public life and be more visible as movers of history. It is only in the last century that women began to be visible in public life, and began to seek civil and public rights equal to man, including sufferage, and political representation.

 

[Iman]

If there is a point here I have to say I have honestly missed it. Are you trying to say that men and women should be treated differently because of natural differences? If this is the case I would like some examples of different situations.

Is this by any chance about same sex relationships or am I reading to much into this post? Seriously, I am lost.

Really I have no preconceived notion that I am trying to lead up to. I am honestly trying to explore the many aspects of sexism. I believe in a Just God and I don't question His wisdom, but I must seek answers to questions f injustice that women have endured throughout history, and are still enduring in one form or another. I am also trying to dissect the power relations within society that distribute privelege. Man/woman relationship is one of the most obvious of these power relations.

 

[Iman]

Women were respected for many of the same reasons men were... taking good care of their families, being wise and giving good advice. Being skilled in crafts and so on.
Men would not insult a woman for being weak, generally women did all the heavy work around the settlements. Hauling wood and so forth.
By and large they also owned everything, so you didn't want to treat her badly or you would find yourself homeless real quick. And face the wrath of her family.
In other cultures she could just decide to leave and go somewhere else... divorce was not a problem.

wa:do

I like that arrangement, especially the part about her owning everything

 

[Charity]

It's cultural, darling.

My philosophy is this regarding dealing with patriarchy and it's abuses - I'm going to speak my mind and flaunt my stuff. If anyone has a problem with it, it's their problem, not mine.

But, sure, we still have a ways to go to find the general respect we'd like. I don't want to let that get me down, though. I'll still speak my mind and flaunt my stuff with no shame or regret.

Your so right , I like your philosophy and if you got it flaunt it, if you "ain't" got it flaunt it anyway........

 

[Iman]

It's cultural, darling.

My philosophy is this regarding dealing with patriarchy and it's abuses - I'm going to speak my mind and flaunt my stuff. If anyone has a problem with it, it's their problem, not mine.

But, sure, we still have a ways to go to find the general respect we'd like. I don't want to let that get me down, though. I'll still speak my mind and flaunt my stuff with no shame or regret.

It is really their problem, but we still have to live with any possible consequences. I don't necessarily blame men for the plight of women, because I think that social arrangements are made on a collective subconscious level to accommodate all, within a system that grants authority to the most powerful. The 'lesser' parties, whether they be of the "weaker" sex, the less wealthy, or the less advantaged in general get by either because of services they provide, or as an act of compassion in a cultural sense. This is social nature, a second nature and women had to play to the rules of the game to be able to thrive. Of course, we think that things have changed now, with the change in standards of power, but then again, have they? Really?