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Featured Would Jesus Have known what Modern Science knows?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Windwalker, Jun 18, 2022.

  1. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    This question is mainly to Christians, but those of other faiths may share their thoughts to this. This question came up in another thread where I expressed my view while Jesus may be considered the Son of God to Christians, his knowledge of things that modern science knows would have been lacking for him, being a human being living 2000 years ago before modern science.

    This caused great concern for one person of faith to consider that Jesus' knowledge of the natural world could possibly be limited to the understanding of those of his day. They seemed to believe Jesus would have had supernatural knowledge about all things, including whether or not evolution was valid scientifically. If this were true, then would Jesus have also known the earth orbits the sun, and the sun, not the earth, was the center of the solar system? Would Jesus have understood quantum mechanics? And so forth.

    As a Christian, do you feel that Jesus, because he was a flesh and blood human being, that his knowledge of all things would have been limited as the rest of his fellows of his day? This isn't talking about spiritual insights, but technical information, such as how life evolved on this earth, such that he could be called upon as disagreeing with modern science because he spoke of the creation story instead, proving he proof he knew about evolution, but rejected it by referencing Genesis instead of talking about evolution.

    As a Christian do you feel that saying Jesus' knowledge was limited to the knowledge of his day, is denegarating to him? If so, explain? Are you comfortable as a Christian to recognize that Jesus was a human being who didn't know everything magically or supernaturally?
     
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  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I don't see any Christians answering this. But let me give it a favorable light. If as Jesus before he was crucified to be "fully human" would to me limit his knowledge to what a human could know. So in other words he would not have known all that we know today.
     
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  3. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    As a human today psychic proving memory as old human life recorded is not accurate by voiced status.

    Is by words a human gave to all things first existing naturally only.

    Position to think theme word use by just a man hu man.

    My words of my day are conscious medical as life survival was balanced with mineral knowledge and herbal remedy.

    Natural correct innate proven aware human man.

    Born a baby. Grew into a man.

    I would prove my updated knowledge wisdom was given back to my consciousness by changed previous destructive heavens attack. Moses.

    Yet born a baby naturally medical aware I'm not technology aware. As that is chosen designs by self human applied calculus knowledge first of Alchemy and then reactive machine controls. Men's choices only.

    By men named Satanists. Old human scientists quotes. Men who knew evil versus God highest types.

    Why humans owned a God argument as natural science versus evil occultism science. What the testimonial was written about.

    On earth as humans exact terms God pre existed. Rock and natural balanced heavens first.

    Did human men know science by a lived human only witness of a star fall So gained advice from out of space?

    Yes. Proven by future life owning a non technology and no science practice. Yet predicted life sacrifice returned proved science doesn't exist. And what terms science advice was.

    Before it was re chosen science by just humans.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Jesus was a Jewish man from the first century AD. With all the limits of that age.
    The only scientific law he knew was the law of Love. That is how He healed the sick, He resuscitated Lazarus and so on.

    People tend to think that man and God are separated. Jesus demonstrated it is not true.
    Whenever a scientist finds a cure for a disease, whenever a physician performs a miracle of science, God is there.
    God approves, and is happy. But the merits are human merits, because there is no separation between God and man.

    John 14:12
    12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    He seems to have known --at any given time-- everything he needed to know. So tapping into the unlimited knowledge of God but more focused like a laser on the moment. He operated by the gift of prophecy. Everything he said and did was by the Spirit of God.

    But he did walk by faith; so in the moment things were hidden to him. Although he --no doubt-- saw more than any other man.
     
  6. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I am not a Christian, and on top of it, I am a strong atheist. People of his time, had much more knowledge than him - History of science in early cultures - Wikipedia. I do not think there were schools other than religious schools in Israel at that time, and I do not think his family had resources to pay a private tutor like the rich of that time might have been doing.
     
    #6 Aupmanyav, Jun 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
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  7. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Bible tells that Jesus didn't know all, for example:

    But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    Matt. 24:36

    However, I believe Jesus knew that later people will believe things that are not true. (Evolution theory, is only a scientific belief, not real knowledge).
     
  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It is hard to know the consciousness of the human Jesus of 2000 years ago.
    All things were created through Him and so the pre human Jesus knew all things but as a man He was a man and the New Testament says He grew in stature and wisdom. (Luke 2:52) which would mean that He gained knowledge as a man does.
    In the years He was preaching and even before He did seem to know whom He was however and to know stuff about the people of the OT.
    When He became a man He chose to not live as the pre human Son of God with all His Godly abilities etc. Whether that meant that He knew thing about science and how He made life forms etc etc and just did not let on that He knew, I don't know.
     
  9. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Of course, we are only theologizing. IMV, he simply was being focused on the purpose fulfilled at age 33. The fact that it was Jesus who gave John the Revelation, I think he knew what was to come.
     
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  10. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Yes, that is one example that Jesus was not all-knowing.

    You think that Jesus believed the science of evolution was wrong? How do you suppose that?

    BTW, as a point of correction for you, in science a "theory" is not a belief or a guess, or a hypothesis, or a supposition. Theory in scientific terms means a "model" which explains the evidence in hand. So a better way to understand it is the Scientific Model of Evolution. That's not a "belief", or a faith. It's science.
     
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  11. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    So then someone really can't cite Jesus referring to the creation story as his opinion of the scientific theory of evolution, since that would have more than likely been outside the scope of his knowledge back in that day? Since he didn't know about it, it seems highly unlikely him bringing up Adam and Eve had anything to do with challenging science then, correct?

    To briefly address bringing up Adam and Eve, I speaking of Adam and Eve all the time, and I bring up the Garden of Eden, the temptation, the fall, etc. But I don't believe that challenges the theory of evolution. That story is about something else, not science. Christians can believe Adam and Eve represent humanity as a whole, without necessarily reading the story as literal history.

    Romeo and Juliet are referred to all the time to speak of undying love, but were they literal people themselves? Even if they were literal, the story makes them "larger than life", so the intent was not merely recording history.
     
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  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    I would agree and say that Jesus' "expertice", if you will, was spiritual knowledge. That's not something you learn in textbooks. I certainly don't think he as a human being was some Cosmic Encyclopedia of Information. I don't believe most Christians believe that Jesus the man, was an all-knowing deity.

    Theologically speaking, there was his divine nature, and his human nature, referred to as the hypostatic union. His human side was not the eternal divine Logos, but finite, limited flesh. That finite limitation would have also included what information was stored in his brain matter, such as things learned from education, or by actually being a scientist and doing science, for instance.

    Well, one could argue that was not the human Jesus that lived for 33 years on earth, but the risen divine Christ. Thinking in terms of the hypostatic union, that's not the fleshly, earthly Jesus that the author of Revelation experienced in his vision. It was something "supernatural", not "natural", as Jesus the man from Nazareth was.

    As a footnote to this "human Jesus" understanding, do you believe Jesus the man, the boy, the adolescent who learned and grew, ever made any mistakes of knowledge? Like if he took a test on some information and got a few questions wrong, or was he a perfect, 100% straight-A student who never made any mistakes in life on anything whatsoever?

    I wouldn't believe that personally. Being "without sin" does not mean being right about information 100% of the time. Sin against God, and making mistakes on ideas about things, are not the same thing. If your kid came home with a C on test, would you consider them a sinner because? ;)

    Then why should we assume Jesus was flawless in everything as a human? Would he really be a human "like us" then, if that were true??
     
    #12 Windwalker, Jun 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  13. Eli G

    Eli G Member

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    Jesus had no opinion on modern matters, because that was not the mission that Jehovah entrusted to him. Jesus Christ touched in his speeches and dialogues on issues related to the salvation of people, their relationship with their Father, how humans should fulfill the rule of loving their fellow men...

    Jesus demonstrated with his miracles that the promises to eliminate diseases and the death that Jehovah gave (like Psal. 37:10,11) will be a reality when human governments cease to exist and it is God himself through Jesus as King in heaven who controls all human affairs and the planet.

    Jesus used many discursive devices, but when he spoke of facts recorded in the Bible he was not metaphorical. Jesus considered ALL of God's inspired Scripture to be "the truth" (John 17:17)... Obviously anything that contradicts Scripture is part of the lie. For Jesus, as for his real followers, the truth about revealed matters IS NOT RELATIVE.
     
  14. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    First Jesus was "son of God", later He realized "my Father and I are one". This realization does not give you omniscience. Omniscience you can not get while living on earth. Avatars are said to have been born with "omniscience". Jesus was not born with Omniscience, so He would not know everything.

    BUT being a Spiritual Master, Jesus might be giving any knowledge what is needed at the moment. So, to answer your question...no Jesus would not know what modern science knows, because that was not a hot item, no need to know right then and there. Of course Jesus might have known many things modern science still does not now, because in Silence and meditation knowledge just comes to you.
     
  15. Wildswanderer

    Wildswanderer Well-Known Member

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    How could he not know? He was God incarnate. And he referred to the fact that he was the I AM who was alive prior to Abraham. I believe what Jesus learned was how it feels to be human but he knew everything God knows. He knew Adam and Eve were literal humans because he was there.
     
  16. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    If that is so, then why should we take him referring to Adam and Eve as an example of marriage in some conversation he was having, as a challenge to the modern Theory of Evolution? He would not have even know about it back then, would he have, let alone be challenging it?

    Do you believe Jesus was aware of how the earth worked at a mechanical level, such as the earth orbited the sun, and not the other way around?

    All of which had nothing to do with the natural sciences, such as the Theory of Evolution has shown us to be true. He simply wasn't concerned about those matters, was he?

    Do you believe that if Jesus knew about Evolution, that it would have thrown his faith into crisis if he were to consider its merits as supported by the evidence? Personally, I think his response would have been "How wonderful are thy works, oh Lord!".

    Someone in person asked me recently if I believed God created everything, or if I believed in evolution. I answered her, "Yes". She struggled a bit with that, expecting an either/or answer, not a both/and answer. I clarified by saying to her, "I am 13.5 billion years of evolution walking on two feet and talking to you right now. 'I am fearfully and wonderfully made!'." Both are true statements.

    I think she got the point. Do you?

    Was the Good Samaritan a historical person? Why should we assume he believed Adam and Eve were literal people, and not names we give to those who symbolize the human race as a whole?

    I think the issue lies with how you are choosing to interpret Jesus' words, not what he actually was actually intending to focus on, which was not teaching natural history and science. To try to apply it out of context, is forcing yourself and modern thoughts into the texts of the Bible, "adding to it", in other words.

    " Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth," has nothing whatsoever to do with technical information! You are not "sanctified" by acing a test in school. :)

    The Truth, being spoken of there is spiritual truth, not technical information, such as quantum physics, natural sciences, history lessons, and so forth.

    The Bible is not about that. Jesus was not about that. He was about the heart being made pure, not the about clarifying facts of earth history and science, right? I just simply do not see that Jesus on the Bible's pages. Do you?

    Contradicts it how? You mean, if a verse of scripture can be shown that the sun orbits the earth, then the science which shows that earth orbits the sun is a lie? You know the Bible was used to contradict Galileo that way, don't you? Were they right? Are you right?

    I'm not talking about relativism, which is an entirely different subject. We're talking about objective reality, such as the sciences showing the earth is ancient, the cosmos is ancient, life evolved through stages, germs cause diseases, and those other sorts of facts, which have not to do with relativism.

    I allow the Bible to be a product of its day, and appreciate its insights into matters of faith and spiritual truth. But I do not treat as though it is an alternative to modern science, which has nothing to do with those things.
     
    #16 Windwalker, Jun 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  17. Eli G

    Eli G Member

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    No science is going to give anyone eternal life... Science has nothing to do with the judgment that all humanity will face. In fact, many productions of some scientists have contributed to the ruin of the planet and the corruption of entire societies. The servants of God do not belong to this world…they wait for the next and live the life that really is life.

    John 17:15 “I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world. 17 Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. 18 Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world. 19 And I am sanctifying myself in their behalf, so that they also may be sanctified by means of truth.

    1 Tim. 6:17 Instruct those who are rich in the present system of things not to be arrogant, and to place their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who richly provides us with all the things we enjoy. 18 Tell them to work at good, to be rich in fine works, to be generous, ready to share, 19 safely treasuring up for themselves a fine foundation for the future, so that they may get a firm hold on the real life.
     
  18. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." I don't think him being the Divine in flesh, meant he knew everything in the universe. You can see that in this verse alone. Add to this, scripture also teaches that Jesus learned and grew in wisdom and stature. Does God grow in wisdom and stature in how you believe, or is this only something you would say of a limited, finite human being? So I don't think the argument he was God incarnate means we get to ignore he was also fully a finite human being, does it? Scripture seems to say he was limited.

    Being a human being who had to learn and grow like the rest of us, how to walk, how to talk, how to socialize, etc, all of those human things, means he was not born a fully mature adult, right? Do you believe Jesus was able to walk straight out of the womb?

    That's very different, to recognize he possessed the Eternal Nature of the Divine and that was his true Identity, does not equate into having supernatural knowledge about things like cosmology, evolutionary theory, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, and the like. As a human being, Jesus the man would not have known these things, nor could have known these things as they were not yet discovered until nearly 2000 years after he died as a human person.

    He wrote the book of Genesis as a scientific textbook? Was the author of Genesis there??
     
  19. Eli G

    Eli G Member

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    That Jesus does not know everything that Jehovah God knows does not mean that he does not know something that humans know ... it is a fallacy where they change one issue for another and believe that no one will notice (in simple words).

    Everyone knows that the story of Eden is treated in Scripture as historical fact and that is why Jesus would not doubt its veracity. Non-Christians doubt everything; they once doubted that King David had even existed.

    The historical facts narrated in the Bible are real facts. The events of Eden marked humanity's disastrous beginning, when it could have been so different. Jehovah's purpose when he created humans is going to be fulfilled, and Jesus' sacrifice paid the price to make that possible.
     
  20. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Neither does learning about car mechanics have anything to do with spirituality. However, if you want to fix cars, you need to learn about them from the experts in cars, not turn to the Bible for instructions on tuning a carburetor. Same thing when it comes to understanding how nature is designed to work. The Bible doesn't teach that. It's not about that. Science is however. They specifically study that as an expertise. So one would think if one were genuinely interested in knowledge about it, you'd go to the right experts on those subjects of interest.

    Same thing can be said of religionists. Do you know how many have suffered and died by those who abuse religion for power? Should we paint everyone, or all of religion, or all of science, by those who have abused it? If so, then are you supportive of the Spanish Inquisition by association with religion? Do you believe in torturing infidels? No?

    What ever happened to "You are the light of the world", or "You are the salt of the earth"? Are you saying, "Screw this world! I just want my reward when I die"?" Is this your idea of being a follower of Jesus? Personally, I see that as purely narcissistic and spiritually immature.
     
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