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Would discovery of species previously thought to be extinct impact the theory of evolution?

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
You say understanding evolves. Right now, that's a slanted statement because true knowledge overturns what is not true. But that is also what makes humans different from, um, those that came before them. :) (Like even from the supposed "stone age" that was considered prehistoric, yes?)
After reading this again, I would argue that your "true" knowledge overturning false information is part of the evolution of understanding. I would say that new information can replace old information and increase our understanding or, at least, show us that we need to know more to better understand. True knowledge implies absolutes that are logically impossible to guarantee. At least outside of math.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh wow my nephew would go nuts in there! Now that travel bans have been lifted and such, it's time to start travelling again. That sounds like a nice little summer trip to me.
Thanks for sharing! :)
You're welcome. I haven't travelled in a long time. Now this has gotten me to thinking about it again. I am fond of the little hidden gems that one stumbles across by accident.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
After reading this again, I would argue that your "true" knowledge overturning false information is part of the evolution of understanding. I would say that new information can replace old information and increase our understanding or, at least, show us that we need to know more to better understand. True knowledge implies absolutes that are logically impossible to guarantee. At least outside of math.
I started waking up to the science insofar as evolution goes (yes, I took the covid19 vaccine, did you?) when I learned that Haeckel's theory of recapitulation was overturned. Because I used to believe everything I was taught in biology and chemistry, thinking they just couldn't/wouldn't make mistakes. The teachers, I'm sure, believed what they were teaching. Until, of course, it was overturned. Anyway -- many of my questions have been answered -- thank you.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I started waking up to the science insofar as evolution goes (yes, I took the covid19 vaccine, did you?) when I learned that Haeckel's theory of recapitulation was overturned. Because I used to believe everything I was taught in biology and chemistry, thinking they just couldn't/wouldn't make mistakes. The teachers, I'm sure, believed what they were teaching. Until, of course, it was overturned. Anyway -- many of my questions have been answered -- thank you.
Yes, Haeckel had a very poorly formed theory. He was close to a correct idea, but his version was just weird. His theory being refuted in now way harmed evolution at all since it never relied upon it.

And like I said he was close to having the right idea:

Evolutionary developmental biology - Wikipedia
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I started waking up to the science insofar as evolution goes (yes, I took the covid19 vaccine, did you?) when I learned that Haeckel's theory of recapitulation was overturned. Because I used to believe everything I was taught in biology and chemistry, thinking they just couldn't/wouldn't make mistakes. The teachers, I'm sure, believed what they were teaching. Until, of course, it was overturned. Anyway -- many of my questions have been answered -- thank you.
So you're upset that science corrects itself as it goes along, working ever toward a more accurate interpretation of the facts at hand?
Why??
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I started waking up to the science insofar as evolution goes (yes, I took the covid19 vaccine, did you?) when I learned that Haeckel's theory of recapitulation was overturned. Because I used to believe everything I was taught in biology and chemistry, thinking they just couldn't/wouldn't make mistakes. The teachers, I'm sure, believed what they were teaching. Until, of course, it was overturned. Anyway -- many of my questions have been answered -- thank you.
It is a strength that science goes where the evidence takes it.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yes, Haeckel had a very poorly formed theory. He was close to a correct idea, but his version was just weird. His theory being refuted in now way harmed evolution at all since it never relied upon it.

And like I said he was close to having the right idea:

Evolutionary developmental biology - Wikipedia
I can understand how people come up with, or believe the theory. As I have said, I no longer do. Because (1) I believe that God exists and that He created the heavens and the earth and the life forms within. And (2) because as I have looked more carefully at the concept of evolution, I have come to realize that (frankly) it is impossible. If you ask me why I think it is impossible that life evolved into its various forms, I will basically tell you that the theory is based on scientific conjecture. And more than that, the conjecture may seem to add up, but -- not really. Why do I say that? Because the energy and "natural selection" needed to have the organisms, small or large, to evolve from one type (plant vs. animal) to another no longer makes sense to me. And, of course, it cannot be proved. We know that. I have seen arguments that it's true, no longer questionable, etc., but I don't believe that either. So with that being said -- have a great day.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I can understand how people come up with, or believe the theory. As I have said, I no longer do. Because (1) I believe that God exists and that He created the heavens and the earth and the life forms within. And (2) because as I have looked more carefully at the concept of evolution, I have come to realize that (frankly) it is impossible. If you ask me why I think it is impossible that life evolved into its various forms, I will basically tell you that the theory is based on scientific conjecture. And more than that, the conjecture may seem to add up, but -- not really. Why do I say that? Because the energy and "natural selection" needed to have the organisms, small or large, to evolve from one type (plant vs. animal) to another no longer makes sense to me. And, of course, it cannot be proved. We know that. I have seen arguments that it's true, no longer questionable, etc., but I don't believe that either. So with that being said -- have a great day.
What evidence did you use to determine the Bible is true and accurate in all things?
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
I can understand how people come up with, or believe the theory. As I have said, I no longer do. Because (1) I believe that God exists and that He created the heavens and the earth and the life forms within. And (2) because as I have looked more carefully at the concept of evolution, I have come to realize that (frankly) it is impossible. If you ask me why I think it is impossible that life evolved into its various forms, I will basically tell you that the theory is based on scientific conjecture. And more than that, the conjecture may seem to add up, but -- not really. Why do I say that? Because the energy and "natural selection" needed to have the organisms, small or large, to evolve from one type (plant vs. animal) to another no longer makes sense to me. And, of course, it cannot be proved. We know that. I have seen arguments that it's true, no longer questionable, etc., but I don't believe that either. So with that being said -- have a great day.
Do bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics? Do plants evolve resistance to herbicides? Do insects evolve resistance to insecticides? As examples of evolution, these do occur and are not conjecture. These resistance traits are real. Their persistence in populations costs money and even lives.

I am not clear on why you think it is impossible for different species and higher taxa to evolve, but your incredulity is not a criteria for determining whether it happens or not.

The evidence from many disciplines supports that evolution is taking place and the theory of evolution (while not provable in the logical sense) is the best explanation we have for the facts of evolution that are observed.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Do bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics? Do plants evolve resistance to herbicides? Do insects evolve resistance to insecticides? As examples of evolution, these do occur and are not conjecture. These resistance traits are real. Their persistence in populations costs money and even lives.

I am not clear on why you think it is impossible for different species and higher taxa to evolve, but your incredulity is not a criteria for determining whether it happens or not.

The evidence from many disciplines supports that evolution is taking place and the theory of evolution (while not provable in the logical sense) is the best explanation we have for the facts of evolution that are observed.
OK, despite developing resistance to antibiotics or herbicides, they still remain bacteria. This does not in any way show that fish eventually became by evolutionary force of "natural selection" mammals.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, despite developing resistance to antibiotics or herbicides, they still remain bacteria. This does not in any way show that fish eventually became by evolutionary force of "natural selection" mammals.
That hardly matters as has been explained to you many times. The theory of evolution does not state that change must be dramatic and that one form of life should suddenly change into another. Why do you expect that should be so. If it were to happen that a fish turned into a salamander, a lizard, a sparrow or cuddly little bunny, then the theory would not explain that.

It shows the process of evolution in human time. Speciation and phylogenetic change occur under the same auspices in geological time. The evidence supports this. What other explanation for the evidence is there? What do you have to explain it? According to a literal interpretation of Genesis, the evidence shouldn't even exist. Yet it does.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If you ask me why I think it is impossible that life evolved into its various forms, I will basically tell you that the theory is based on scientific conjecture. And more than that, the conjecture may seem to add up, but -- not really. Why do I say that? Because the energy and "natural selection" needed to have the organisms, small or large, to evolve from one type (plant vs. animal) to another no longer makes sense to me. And, of course, it cannot be proved.
This is typical creationist tactics - misinformation.

But the misinformation come from not out of understanding the theory, but through allowing creationist’s personal belief in one’s own religion, to put “log” in front of one’s eyes (borrowing the speck-log parable) and plugging fingers in one’s ears.

Clearly, not all theists act in the same way as you do, as they don’t confuse religion with science or science with religion.

And you clearly have neither knowledge, nor the qualifications, nor the experiences, to judge objectively if Evolution is or isn’t science, because you don’t understand the basic concept of empirical “scientific evidence”, which are essential requirements of Scientific Method in every falsifiable theory.

But your religious faith and your bias are not your biggest faults, as shown below:

And, of course, it cannot be proved.

The biggest fault is your incapability of learning from one’s own errors.

Like how many times, must everyone explain to to you that any scientific theory that worth its salt, relied on observable and testable evidence, NOT ON PROOFS?

You keep confusing proof with evidence, and proving/disproving with testing. In the world of natural sciences and world of mathematics, they are not synonymous with one another.

Sciences “test” their models through observations of evidence, they don’t “prove” or “disprove”.

Testing a hypothesis or a theory, means testing the explanatory model, the predictive model & the logical model (this “logical model” is where the equations are formulated, equation = proof).

Such (multiple) tests involved (multiple) observations of physical evidence and gathering information about the evidence (data). It is these evidence & data that determine if the hypothesis or theory is scientifically valid or not valid, probable or improbable.

The tests are all about verifying or refuting any models, whether the models are explanatory, predictive or logical.

You keep refusing to understand the differences -
  • between evidence vs proofs,
  • between testing/observing vs proving/disproving.
Anyway, it is evidence that verify which theory is “science”, and Evolution have 163 years of evidence (163 years since the publication of On Origin Of Species, 1859).

Actually more than 163 years, since Darwin began his observations and researches of nature that led to On Origin, during his voyage onboard of HMS beagle, from 1831 to 1836.

Since his death, other biologists have been able to correct-&-update his work on Natural Selection, as well as expanded to include modern genetics, modern testing techniques (eg DNA tests, various techniques to date any materials’ age, eg radiometric dating, thermoluminescence dating, etc).

These new testing methods provide evidence and data to support Natural Selection, as well as more evidence other mechanisms of Evolution, eg Mutations, Genetic Drift, etc.

If you allow your bias to not see these evidence, then you have a very big log in front of your eyes. Stubborn ignorance and intellectual dishonesty (eg when you use misinformation in your arguments) are not virtues.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
OK, despite developing resistance to antibiotics or herbicides, they still remain bacteria. This does not in any way show that fish eventually became by evolutionary force of "natural selection" mammals.
The ones developing resistance to herbicides remain plants. Though bacteria have evolved the ability to degrade herbicides.

Is there some reason that you think that evolution means that a species undergoing selection must transform into an entirely different class of animals or plant? What is the basis for this thinking? It isn't something taught as evolution and it isn't anything observed. Again, it would short out the current theory of evolution, since a reasonable explanation for such magic-seeming transformation could not be developed based on the theory.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
OK, despite developing resistance to antibiotics or herbicides, they still remain bacteria. This does not in any way show that fish eventually became by evolutionary force of "natural selection" mammals.

But Evolution is about “changes”, big or small, that get passed on to the next x-number of generations, genetically.

And more importantly, Evolution isn’t just about a single individual receiving the “changes”, but whole “population” receive the necessary changes.

Have you ever study bacteria, YoursTrue?

Unicellular organisms, like bacteria, reproduce asexually through process known as binary fission.

So a single bacteria can reproduce in matters of 10 minutes (9.8 minutes), thereby doubling the population. So imagine a 1gram of soil, containing 1 million bacteria. In about every 10 minutes, the population would double, repeatedly.

The point, being when bacteria developed resistance to antibiotics, the rate in which they reproduce, the resistance spread through the population of descendants very quickly.

New species of bacteria occur more rapidly, due to how short a time it reproduce.

And btw, the evolution of fish is not a monophyletic group, it is paraphyletic. Meaning that it was a single event for evolution to occur.

Plus fish is a general description, it is not a name for a single species. I am not a marine biologist, but I am quite sure there are many species within salmon family - Salmonidae. Not of the variant of species of salmon will reproduce any offspring of species of tiger shark.

That’s not how Natural Selection works, YoursTrue.

Speciation reproduce will only within the genus and family, so a salmon cannot simply jump to another different groups of taxon, like genus, family, tribe and class, to go from Atlantic salmon to tiger shark.

You are pushing the same tired and old creationist tactics, misinformation.

Clearly you don’t understand enough of basic biology, let alone evolutionary biology, so like every other creationists I have known here at RF, you creationists have the tendencies to your ignorance to make up impossible scenario for evolution.

At least, try to understand Evolution, and not make up some crazy impossible scenario.

What is even more crazy, is that creationists can actually believe that lifeless dust can transform into human being, all fully grown without being given birth, or to experience infancy and childhood before reaching adulthood age.

The creation of Adam, is not only impossible, in nature, it is highly improbable, and Genesis creation defy nature far more than any Natural Selection description. The creation of Adam is utterly ludicrous.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
OK, despite developing resistance to antibiotics or herbicides, they still remain bacteria. This does not in any way show that fish eventually became by evolutionary force of "natural selection" mammals.
Despite evolving into mammals, the descendants of fish still remain vertebrates and eukaryotes.
 
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