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Works and Faith

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Buttons*, Dec 18, 2005.

  1. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hi, there is a book by Charles Stanley, called something like, Can a Christian Ever Lose Their Salvation? (My parents have had it for years, so I forgot the title exactly) Anyway, he believed one could lose their salvation all through college and finaly near the end of Seminary he saw it differently and teaches once saved always saved. I could throw out a bunch of verses, but I wanted to address the deal of how we, having been transformed from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, and adopted by God as His children, sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption, bought with the blood of the Lamb, imputed with Christ's righteousness, and not our own, held in God's hand who is greater than all, including ourself, promised he will in no wise cast us out (in the greek no wise, I am told is 5 negatives- I will never, no, never, no, never cast you out), one is enough for me. That nothing can separate us from the Love of God, not the highest thing in heaven or lowest thing in Hell nor any other creature, that salvation is a free gift, paid in full by Our Lord Jesus Christ, (I know I ramble), how can WE do something to lose it?

    Now, we as God's children, when we sin, are most miserable and aware of our sin, and we can be, and this is important, out of FELLOWSHIP with God, but NEVER out of RELATIONSHIP. My children can disobey me and we may lose some of our closeness, our fellowship, maybe they won't even speak to me, but they will NEVER not be my children.

    Also we are a NEW CREATURE, like a catepillar turned into a butterfly, we may walk around like a catepillar, we may land on things we should not, but we are now a beautiful butterfly capable of flight if we only realize it, and take God's Word for it. A butterfly will never turn back into a catepillar. In Corinthians there is a man who is in adultery with his father's wife, Paul says turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the soul may be saved. The Bible speaks of many who will be in Heaven, but will have no reward, saved,'yet as by fire' or 'by the skin of their teeth' I like to say.

    Ephesisans 2:8-10 says it well, we are saved by grace-undeserved favor, God has no reason to save us except he loves even us vile sinners, saved by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast, then says we are saved to go on to do good works. James says the same thing, If we SAY we have faith, men should see evidence of it by change in our life and by our good deeds that glorify God. What are works? Anything you do out of love for God and your fellow man. GIve a cup of water, visit a friend in prison, help at church, help out at home, say an encouraging word, pray for others, feed, clothe, help the needy, go to work and spend your money wisely, the list is endless. People will see a difference in you, believe it, they will. But, man looks at the outward appearance, God looks at the heart, so we mustn't be quick to judge ppl in meat or drink or holy days, or anything like that. Ok, I think I ramble, but I would like to say, this is my OWN flow of conscience typing no cutting and pasting, those who know what I mean, you may laugh now!

    Love to ALL!

    Michael
     
  2. angellous_evangellous

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    The distinction between fellowship and relationship is what Bonhoeffer criticised as cheap grace. Isn't the relationship with God defined by the fellowship?

    I have heard this type of stuff preached before, and it cheapens grace. Salvation is clearly a gift from God. Assurance, however, comes from discipleship. The disciples of Christ have assurance because they keep the commands of Christ. They are in right relationship with Christ and have fellowship with Christ and one another. The rebellious have a wrong relationship - and if you have a wrong relationship with God in this life, you'll have a wrong relationship with God in the next - with God and with each other. Fellowship is relationship.

    No fellowship means that there is no relationship. I can't detect a difference between someone hating God and not going to heaven and someone who once confessed Christ who now hates God.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hey Joe,

    Do a word study on grace: it did not mean "unmerited favor" in the Greek. Here is where they used a verse to "define" a word and got it screwed around backwards. Free is an attribute of grace and not it's definition.

    Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10F or we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. NIV

    The root word for grace is charis... from where we get "charisma", "charismatic" and character. You are saved by becoming just like God... having his character... and it's FREE and there is NO WAY you can change yourself, it has to come from God. This was by far the best word study I ever did in terms of how it eliminated a buzz word and completely changed my life and my relationship with God.
     
  4. searcher63

    searcher63 Member

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    Everlasting life "IS" an undeserved gift from GOD which NO ONE can EARN through WORKS. However, that being said, one can not use that as an excuse nOT to perform good works. If that were the case then why the scripture:'"Faith without works is dead." or :" By their fruits you will know them" ( refering to followers of Christ) Our ministry that Christ commanded his followers to perform is referred to in the Bible as:"The fruit of lips" It is obviuos that GOD expects his true followers to perform good works.
     
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  5. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    As 1 Corinthians 15:58 says, there is "plenty to do in the work of the Lord." Foremost is the Kingdom-preaching and disciple-making work. At 2 Timothy 4:5, Paul urged: "Make the preaching of the Good News your life’s work, in thoroughgoing service." (Jerusalem Bible) yes fruit of lips indeed

    And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come ....matthew 24;14

     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You did know that faith is a "work"...

    John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
    29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
    NIV

    In exactly the same way that baptism is a "work". Thought you should know! :D
     
  7. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Yes faith without works is dead
    Jas. 2:17, 18, 21, 22, 26: "Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself. Nevertheless, a certain one will say: ‘You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith by my works.’ Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected. Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

    Rom. 10:17: "Faith follows the thing heard." (Compare Acts 17:11, 12; John 4:39-42; 2 Chronicles 9:5-8. A person must first find out what the Bible says, and he will strengthen his conviction if he examines it carefully so as to be convinced of its reliability.)

    works are a means of demonstrating the genuineness of our faith and our love. If we do not obey God we do not really love him or have faith in the rightness of his ways. (1 John 5:3, 4) But we cannot earn salvation no matter what works we do. Eternal life is a gift from God through Jesus Christ, not payment for our works.—Eph. 2:8, 9

     
  8. O-O

    O-O New Member

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    In my humble opinion, the name "I AM", indicates a state of being that connotes elements of faith and works, and since we are talking about God, in a perfect balance. If I am to sit here and contemplate my existence, and my ability to comprehend a past, present and furture, I'm simultaneously exercising both faith and works (works of some kind--or lack thereof--resulting in where/what I am, and faith--or lack thereof--resulting in going where / becoming what I will be). If God is saying that such His name, then He is doing the same thing, but obviously at an ultra-cosmic level of perfection. If any church is any reflection of God, it is promoting the same thing He does, semantics aside.

    My understanding is that in Christianity, certain kinds of "works" are discouraged because they are an antithesis of faith, such as a) pre-christian religious activities (Law of Moses) that prepared the way for Christ to establish His doctrine in the earth and so were no longer useful; and b) those prideful, self-promoting activities that we engage in (whether in the name of any faith or by way of rebellion) that are against what God wishes us to do. In these instances, faith is better than works. On the other hand, the kind of "faith" that is discouraged is that which does not inspire one to follow Christ, or to just to worship Him with our lips, and in such instancs, "works" such as baptism, exercising charity, etc. is better than faith. Note that one kind of work destroys faith and another promotes faith in Christ; and one kind of faith ruins good thngs and another results in works that promote faith in Christ.
     
  9. Ody

    Ody Well-Known Member

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    Any Faith That Believes That Only Thiers Is The Path To Salvation Is Childish! G-d Is Above Human Feelings Of Pride! He Is Above Recognition Of His Work! Like Any Rational Thinker It Is For Him The Actions That Counts!
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Love it, love it, love it! Good stuff Pete.

    The RCC answer to the OP:
    Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God." For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "work through charity."(Rom 1:17; Gal 5:6.)

    The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. But "faith apart from works is dead"(Jas 2:26) when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

    The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks." Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."(Mt 10:32-33.)

    (CCC #1814-1816)


    Immaculata pray for us,
    Scott
     
  11. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    We are saved by neither. It's by God's grace we are able to be saved. But it is by grace that we are saved through faith, that is, we have faith that His grace is (more than) enough to be saved by. But the faith can die, which is why we need works to keep it alive.

    what contradiction?
     
  12. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    1) What is the definition of works?



    There are various contradictions within the Bible itself that I can see. This does not mean everyone sees what I do. If i pointed them out as contradictions, they would make perfect sense and go together in your mind. There is no point of listing out the things I see because we do not see eye to eye.
     
  13. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    Selfless acts. Lowering yourself for the betterment of someone else. Also the Ten Commandments (don't murder, don't steal, etc.).

    This probably isn't the best explanation.
     
  14. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Didn't Yeshua free us from Jewish law?
     
  15. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    But He also followed the Ten Commandments Himself, and he also told the young ruler to do the same.

    I think you mean that He freed us from the Old Testament law, meaning that we don't need to sacrifice a clean animal every year anymore, and that we are only saved through Him now.

    Again, this probably isn't the best explanation.
     
  16. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    It's fine, I understand what you're saying.
    Still, if we're Christian, those laws would weigh on our hearts already and we wouldnt need the commandments, we'd just know right from wrong because of Yeshua's Love.... imo...
     
  17. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    Yes, but even Jesus kept the commandments. So we should follow His commandments first, and if we do, we will already be following the Ten Commandments. Because if one loved his neighbor as himself, he wouldn't swear, lie, steal, murder, covet, worship idols, commit adultery, and we will obey our parents.

    Get what I mean?
     
  18. Buttons*

    Buttons* Glass half Panda'd

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    Is that not what I just said?
     
  19. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    Oh...well...yeah.
     
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