With all the religious warfare taking place.....

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Wow, i can't believe you think thats the case????

Of course I believe it. As I said, we're living in the most peaceful era in history:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180

Have you watched the news recently? Cases of domestic violence are so bad the world needs to have a special day to try and stop it, parents murdering their children and vice versa, slavery, pedophile rings, school shootings, acts of genocide, violent protests and demonstrations... these are daily occurrences

... and they always have been. Usually in much greater numbers.

Well, the fact that our societies acknowledge the problem of domestic abuse is relatively new, but I see this as more of a positive than a negative: the abuse itself was always there, but the fact that this is now a problem we're tackling suggests that other issues aren't taking our attention as much any more, and it creates the hope for progress.

All the problems you listed do exist. I'm not arguing that the world today is perfect. What I am doing, though, is arguing that it's better now than it has been historically.

Can you point me to any historical era that didn't have the problems you listed?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Hi Robbo (thats how an aussie would say it)

Use to know someone who called me that... made me laugh when I saw it... haha

Yes, i agree, the world is in the hands of the governments and thats a huge problem.
The words of Proverbs 29:2 ring very true:
When the righteous are many, the people rejoice,
But when the wicked one rules, the people groan
But lets face it, if there was no governments at all, there would be anarchy, so we need some kind of authority.... unfortunately we have imperfect people as our rulers and they make mistakes.

I dont believe this is Gods will, no. When he created mankind, he alone was their authority... sadly they turned away from that righteous and generous rulership.
We can see how God feels about human rulership in the bible...ie

Eccl 8:9 All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.

Micah 7:3
Their hands are expert at doing what is bad;
The prince is making demands,
The judge asks for a reward,+
The prominent one makes known his desires,*+
And they work it out together.

Jeremiah 10:23: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong.
It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”

But that last quote implies the opposite... that is: that it is God's will. Also, what of Isaiah 45 (i think) he creates evil... also he makes the blind blind etc

Human rulership is a disaster for mankind. God knows it, and hopefully, after 6,000 years of disastrous rulerships, mankind have come to know it too. What we need is Gods Kingdom to rule us, not imperfect and often wicked people. And that is exactly what God has promised in
Daniel 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever

And if it is not God's will, how do you think he gets to a position of the crucifix? Without some kind of direction it could have gone anywhere. How does an Aussie explain that. (did you sell the horse? I am being nosy)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Human rulership is a disaster for mankind. God knows it, and hopefully, after 6,000 years of disastrous rulerships, mankind have come to know it too. What we need is Gods Kingdom to rule us, not imperfect and often wicked people.

Actually, human rulership and government has been responsible for most of the decrease in violence we've seen over the ages. From the article I linked to earlier:

These investigations show that, on average, about 15% of people in prestate eras died violently, compared to about 3% of the citizens of the earliest states. Tribal violence commonly subsides when a state or empire imposes control over a territory, leading to the various "paxes" (Romana, Islamica, Brittanica and so on) that are familiar to readers of history.

It's not that the first kings had a benevolent interest in the welfare of their citizens. Just as a farmer tries to prevent his livestock from killing one another, so a ruler will try to keep his subjects from cycles of raiding and feuding. From his point of view, such squabbling is a dead loss—forgone opportunities to extract taxes, tributes, soldiers and slaves.

The second decline of violence was a civilizing process that is best documented in Europe. Historical records show that between the late Middle Ages and the 20th century, European countries saw a 10- to 50-fold decline in their rates of homicide.

The numbers are consistent with narrative histories of the brutality of life in the Middle Ages, when highwaymen made travel a risk to life and limb and dinners were commonly enlivened by dagger attacks. So many people had their noses cut off that medieval medical textbooks speculated about techniques for growing them back.

Historians attribute this decline to the consolidation of a patchwork of feudal territories into large kingdoms with centralized authority and an infrastructure of commerce. Criminal justice was nationalized, and zero-sum plunder gave way to positive-sum trade. People increasingly controlled their impulses and sought to cooperate with their neighbors.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424053111904106704576583203589408180


BTW: doesn't the Bible say that all human authority has been appointed by God? Aren't you second-guessing God's judgement by declaring that authority to be "wicked" and "disastrous"?

 

[Pegg]

But that last quote implies the opposite... that is: that it is God's will. Also, what of Isaiah 45 (i think) he creates evil... also he makes the blind blind etc

human rulership was never Gods will. That last verse is saying that rulership 'does not belong' to man.... its not something that he has the ability to 'direct'

And we can see this on so many levels. Man cannot control the weather, he cannot stop the tornados', cannot put an end to the droughts or floods, he cannot stop the earthquakes. Man cannot control the microbes so that they remain under our control, he cannot stop disease, we cannot even manage the animals that we can see let alone the tiny creatures that are invisible to human eyes.

This is why God knew that man would not be able to govern themselves successfully... its not in our power. But the control of these things is within Gods power because he can see those microscopic creatures, and he can calm the winds and the temperatures.

Isaiah

And if it is not God's will, how do you think he gets to a position of the crucifix? Without some kind of direction it could have gone anywhere. How does an Aussie explain that. (did you sell the horse? I am being nosy)

Well, i dont believe Jesus is God, so to me, God doesnt get to a position of the stake.

But I will just say that the commission of Jesus was for the purpose of eventually restoring Gods rulership in the earth... that was the entire purpose for it. So God has gone to great lengths to ensure that his rulership is restored.

And, no, my beautiful horse is not yet sold... still waiting for her forever home.... here's a picture

 

[Robert.Evans]

human rulership was never Gods will. That last verse is saying that rulership 'does not belong' to man.... its not something that he has the ability to 'direct'

And we can see this on so many levels. Man cannot control the weather, he cannot stop the tornados', cannot put an end to the droughts or floods, he cannot stop the earthquakes. Man cannot control the microbes so that they remain under our control, he cannot stop disease, we cannot even manage the animals that we can see let alone the tiny creatures that are invisible to human eyes.

This is why God knew that man would not be able to govern themselves successfully... its not in our power. But the control of these things is within Gods power because he can see those microscopic creatures, and he can calm the winds and the temperatures.

Isaiah

But if we consider it on the level of man's own will, does that verse not say that man will not be in charge of his own destination? If so, who is? Is that not God?

Well, i dont believe Jesus is God, so to me, God doesnt get to a position of the stake.

But I will just say that the commission of Jesus was for the purpose of eventually restoring Gods rulership in the earth... that was the entire purpose for it. So God has gone to great lengths to ensure that his rulership is restored.

And, no, my beautiful horse is not yet sold... still waiting for her forever home.... here's a picture

Nice, nice. Is that you?.... oh Peggy, you've got no head! haha.

 

[DayRaven]

Research and development is increased, at the expense of other spending options

Without the American rivalry with the USSR it is doubtful there would have been a moon landing in 1969 (even less likely without the technology and scientific know how that the second world war produced). Now America seems set on following Europe's example of ploughing money into the black hole of welfare spending: a nice vote winner, but of dubious value for humanity's future.

 

[Pegg]

But if we consider it on the level of man's own will, does that verse not say that man will not be in charge of his own destination? If so, who is? Is that not God?

Its saying that man doesnt have the 'right' or the 'knowhow' to rule himself. Jeremiah wrote this shortly before the destruction of the first temple and the desolation of Jerusalem by Babylon. The Isrealites had been going astray and had not been submitting themselves to Jehovah. The entire passage is about their waywardness and their independence from Gods rulership.

A few verses up says:
21 For the shepherds have behaved senselessly,+
And they have not inquired of Jehovah.+
That is why they have not acted with insight,
And all their flocks have been scattered.”

And when we consider that on a more general level, the whole of mankind have done similar in that they have gone down the same path of independence from God. Thats why we have human governments. Every nation has its own form of rulership and its own governers... they are not being governed by God.

Nice, nice. Is that you?.... oh Peggy, you've got no head! haha.

No, thats not me, thats Kate the english girl riding her.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the long run, we're all dead. Even the universe looks headed for a boring "heat death". I do what I do to make things better just because I like doing it. Is it all in vain? Maybe. I don't dwell on that.

'In the long run', If it were Not God's purpose for the earth to exist forever- Ecclesiastes 1 v 4 B

The humble meek [ Psalm 37 vs 11,29 ] are Not dead people, but healthy living people on earth during Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning over earth.- Rev. 22 v 2

There will be ' No heat death ' for people or earth for as Isaiah 49 v 10 and Rev. 7 v 16 says... neither will the sun ' smite ' beat down on them nor any scorching heat. - Psalm 121 v 6

 

[Revoltingest]

There will be ' No heat death ' for people or earth for as Isaiah 49 v 10 and Rev. 7 v 16 says... neither will the sun ' smite ' beat down on them nor any scorching heat. - Psalm 121 v 6

So long as our universe is a closed thermodynamic system, the 2nd Law (increasing entropy) points to cessation of chemical activity (ie, life).

 

[Pegg]

So long as our universe is a closed thermodynamic system, the 2nd Law (increasing entropy) points to cessation of chemical activity (ie, life).

think about it, the universe has been here for billions of years....and it hasnt stopped turning yet.

Scientific theories WILL and DO come and go, but 'the earth is standing forever"

 

[Revoltingest]

think about it, the universe has been here for billions of years....and it hasnt stopped turning yet.
Scientific theories WILL and DO come and go, but 'the earth is standing forever"

Aye, the universe is old....14 billion years or so. But it's been cooling down the whole time, & things have been spreading apart. This is consistent with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. As temperatures equalize & drop, less & less "work" (a thermodynamic term for chemical reactions & other activity), which is part of life, can occur. Mind you now, I'm just saying that this appears to be an eventuality, based upon what we've observed so far. The odd wrinkle here is dark energy, which appears to be adding energy to speed up expansion of the universe. But then this too portends a sparse & lonely end.

But we've a more pressing problem. In 7 billion years or so, the Sun will use up its hydrogen, & become a red giant. It will be larger than Earth's orbit, so the planet won't be here forever.
Will the Earth be engulfed when the Sun becomes a red giant? | Sydney Observatory
But I'm not worried about what calamities will befall us in 7-100 billion years or so.

 

[Pegg]

Actually, human rulership and government has been responsible for most of the decrease in violence we've seen over the ages. From the article I linked to earlier:

I dont believe there is a decrease.... nations the world over are reporting increases

French magazine L’Express,“urban violence has multiplied practically five fold in six years.”

UN secretary-general, “almost 53,000 children died worldwide in 2002 as a result of homicide.”

Statistics issued by a victimology institution in Holland indicate that 23 percent of women in one South American country, or about 1 in 4, suffer some form of domestic violence.

The Council of Europe estimates that 1 in 4 European women suffers domestic violence during her lifetime.

The British Home Office, in England and Wales in one recent year, an average of two women each week were killed by current or former partners.

The magazine India Today International reported that “for women across India, fear is a constant companion and rape is the stranger they may have to confront at every corner, on any road, in any public place, at any hour.”

The Wall Street Journal reported: “Violence killed 1.6 million people in 2000, matching tuberculosis and surpassing malaria in their death tolls, according to a new World Health Organization report that attempts for the first time to quantify a vast spectrum of brutality,”

BTW: doesn't the Bible say that all human authority has been appointed by God? Aren't you second-guessing God's judgement by declaring that authority to be "wicked" and "disastrous"?

We dont need to second guess anything.... God has already passed judgement on the rulerships of the nations and it is not pretty;

Jeremiah 25:31 “‘A noise will certainly come clear to the farthest part* of the earth, for there is a controversy that Jehovah has with the nations.+ He must personally put himself in judgment with all flesh.+ As regards the wicked ones, he must give them to the sword,’+ is the utterance of Jehovah.

Revelaiton 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time came for the dead to be judged and to... bring to ruin those ruining* the earth.”

Daniel 2:44 "...he will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms..."

So we know where God stands on the issue of human rulership... he will not permit it to continue indefinitely, its had its day and they've been weighed, measured and judged.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

@Pegg, of all of those, a grand total of ONE is related to a trend. The others are not indicative of anything other than current levels.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What lewisnotmiller said.

@Pegg - do you understand how arguing that things are bad now is not the same as arguing that things are worse than they used to be?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Aye, the universe is old....14 billion years or so. But it's been cooling down the whole time, & things have been spreading apart. This is consistent with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. As temperatures equalize & drop, less & less "work" (a thermodynamic term for chemical reactions & other activity), which is part of life, can occur. Mind you now, I'm just saying that this appears to be an eventuality, based upon what we've observed so far. The odd wrinkle here is dark energy, which appears to be adding energy to speed up expansion of the universe. But then this too portends a sparse & lonely end.

But we've a more pressing problem. In 7 billion years or so, the Sun will use up its hydrogen, & become a red giant. It will be larger than Earth's orbit, so the planet won't be here forever.
Will the Earth be engulfed when the Sun becomes a red giant? | Sydney Observatory
But I'm not worried about what calamities will befall us in 7-100 billion years or so.

You've not packed any sandwiches then!
The earth (Land) to me is above. The earth will die eventually. I though though that it had 4.5 billions years to go? Also. the last time I heard Prof Cox speak, the earth will not be engulfed by the sun as the sun is not big enough.... but pack some sandwiches just in case, eh? Always be prepared... dib dib dib (that's the scouts)

 

[Revoltingest]

You've not packed any sandwiches then!
The earth (Land) to me is above. The earth will die eventually. I though though that it had 4.5 billions years to go? Also. the last time I heard Prof Cox speak, the earth will not be engulfed by the sun as the sun is not big enough.... but pack some sandwiches just in case, eh? Always be prepared... dib dib dib (that's the scouts)

I'm in no position to dispute any physicists about stellar evolution....I'm just a gearhead. Still, me sammiches are for more immediate consumption.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The earth (Land) to me is above. The earth will die eventually. I though though that it had 4.5 billions years to go? Also. the last time I heard Prof Cox speak, the earth will not be engulfed by the sun as the sun is not big enough.... but pack some sandwiches just in case, eh? Always be prepared... dib dib dib (that's the scouts)

Earth would die ' if ' it were Not for God's purpose to have the earth exist forever.
As we change garments to refresh oneself, like warn-out clothing God will replace what is worn.
- Psalm 102 vs 25-27 - the resilient earth will always bounce back and abide forever.


- Ecclesiastes 1 v 4 B; Psalms 78 v 69; 93 v 10; 37 vs 11,29,34; 1st Chron. 16 v 30

 

[URAVIP2ME]

BTW: doesn't the Bible say that all human authority has been appointed by God? Aren't you second-guessing God's judgement by declaring that authority to be "wicked" and "disastrous"?

I think you are referring ^ above ^ to Romans chapter 13, and that relative subjection draws the line at Acts 5 v 29 that when there is conflict between God's absolute law and men's law Christians choose to obey God as ruler rather then men.

What will turn out to be wicked or disastrous is what is recorded at Psalm 2 v 2 that the kings [ rulers ] of earth take their stand and high officials gather together as one against God and against His anointed One [ Christ Jesus]. Earth's rulers will Not peaceably relinquish their power to Christ, hence the need for a concise Act of God which will eliminate all evil on earth.
- Psalm 104 v 35; Proverbs 2 vs 21,22; 10 v 30

We are nearing the coming time of 1st Thessalonians 5 vs 2,3 then ' they ' [ powers that be ] will be saying, ' Peace and Safety ' or ' Peace and Security ' but that is a precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7 v 14 before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.