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Featured Why would God show Himself in the first place?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Stevicus, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    While reading a recent thread ("If God Could Just Show Himself..."), I was thinking of the basic idea of God "showing Himself" to those who lack faith or belief in God as a way of proving that God exists.

    But most religions I'm aware of tend to claim that God has already shown Himself, as recorded in Scriptures. But if the whole idea is for people to have faith in the unseen, why would God bother to announce His presence in the first place? Why not just put people on Earth and see what happens? If this is supposed to be some kind of test of humanity's character, isn't God skewing the results by announcing His existence?

    Moreover, why would God actively interfere and meddle in the affairs of humans - and then turn around and presume to judge human society, as if He had nothing to do with how it turned out?
     
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  2. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    In my understanding.
    God become visible when someone cultivate a spiritual teaching and their wisdom level arise. this would mean the person who seek God or other heavenly beings are doing what is asked of them, and it could be to work on ending their own wrongdoings in life, better their own morality, gaining wisdom from cultivation of the teaching opens the understanding of the ( unsee with physical eyes). The spiritual eye also called third eye is what make people able to truly see the spiritua realm. But it require a higher moral standard and take time to develop.

    So if all human beings could cultivate to a higher level of spiritual wisdom, or unerstanding of the unseen in our physical realm, everyone would suddenly understand and do all they could to better them self. and get closer to God and the message from cosmos.
     
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  3. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    More thought than empty evangelical rhetoric. Much appreciated.
     
  4. leov

    leov Well-Known Member

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    Paul mentioned "training senses" in Heb 5 to learn god and evil.
     
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  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I think the whole idea of "God hiding" from us makes no sense. I think it makes a whole lot more sense to assume that God is all around us, in us, and available to us all the time. And we just aren't able to recognize it, except in very rare instances. We're like blind men insisting that the world is "hiding from us" when the world is just being what it is.

    It's we who are unable to see, not God that is unwilling to appear.
     
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  6. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    I think that the Creator is more like gravity than a sky king with superpowers.

    Does gravity show itself?
    Yes and no.
    Tom
     
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  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Seems to me it is not God who is worried about his existence being proven, but theists who are worried about it.
     
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  8. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting question. This leads to many ideas. For example, by what the Bible tells, God was in direct contact with people in earlier times and people still rejected Him. If people do that, there is no reason to appear.

    But, then it is also so that according to the Bible, God is spirit and love and He lives in disciples of Jesus.

    God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
    John 4:24

    He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
    1 John 4:8

    But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    Romans 8:11

    Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:16

    So, to see God, one would have to look into himself? But how could evil person do that, he would only see the ugly truth. It is much easier to pretend to be looking God from somewhere else as some childish image. But I believe true God is close to anyone, many just rather ignore Him.
     
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  9. Hawkins

    Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    It is said in Genesis that Adam fell because of lacking faith and disobedient. Since then, all covenants are cored on faith and ordinances and commandments. Faith becomes the way how humans are savable by the covenants. If God shows up, then men can no longer be saved by faith in accordance to the covenants.

    The only way which works is for God to show up only to the lawfully selected (i.e., His prophets) then for their accounts of testimonies to spread and for the rest of human kind to believe with faith.
     
  10. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Active Member

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    Truly, you are a God who hides himself. (Isaiah 45:15)

    But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:6)

    God is near but his presence is hidden (spiritual). Some say "God is a gentleman". That means our free will is important. It won't be infringed. He won't step in with force. How many of us seek God with all our heart? How many times do we desire intimacy with him more than worldly distraction an relaxation? How many times do we worship him just with our lips? Do we invite God in everything that we do?

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (Revelation 3:20)

    Spiritual presence is hidden. To an open heart Creator is manifested in nature and innerly as inspiration/love. But our hearts are hardened. We are fixed on the shell but the Kingdom of God is like a pearl.

    Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? (Mark 8:17)

    Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. (Matthew 5:8)

    Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. (psalm 51:10)

    I dealt with them according to their uncleanness and transgressions, and I hid My face from them /... / I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 39:24,29)

    The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. (Romans 8:16)
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I don't think God revealed himself to prove that he existed. I think he spoke to help our moral sentience and spiritual understanding evolve. I mean, if it were not for that, we'd still be worshiping rocks and trees and little stone statues.
     
  12. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    Well, even if we were still worshiping rocks and trees and little stone statues, it doesn't necessarily mean that we'd be any different than we are now.
     
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  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I disagree. You look at pagan cultures like the Vikings, and you find that even murder is sanctioned, even valued.

    I've read a lot of anthropological articles which seem to indicate that transnational belief in a single omnipresent God that values ethical behavior not only increases ethical behavior within a given society (because God is watching you!) but increases diplomacy between such societies, since there is share trust and morality more than other belief sets. I know we read about the violence of the middle ages, but anthropologists look at the larger picture rather than compare it to the present only.
     
    #13 IndigoChild5559, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  14. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    It's actually a backdoor way of convincing people of something that will never come through the front door.

    No matter how people find a way to put it or dress things up to sound as if there is an available revelation made exclusively for the special ones, the reality of the matter is that there will never be a god that will come out on its own volition that doesn't require some degree of mental gymnastics created to establish something out of the blue that simply isn't there.
     
  15. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Thats why they invent creative ways to convince people God is there when the reality is clear that nothing is there to begin with.

    Make a god that exists only in a person's mind.

    That's obviously real enough for some folks.
     
  16. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Rubbish! You’re working from the bigoted stereotypes invented by their (mostly Christian) enemies to justify their forced conversion and cultural genocide. Morally the peoples commonly labelled as Viking were no more or less moral that the other societies around them. They also didn’t significantly shift in that manner when the converted (or were converted) to Christianity.

    Were any of those written by anthropologist who weren’t monotheists themselves? Put simply, the idea that one single abstract concept can have such a distinctive and unconditional impact on an entire society (much of which didn’t necessarily actually believe what they were told they had to believe) is ridiculous.
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Look, I don't agree with forced proselytization. As a Jew, my people had to deal with stuff like this from Christians for 2000 years, so don't talk to me like I'm defending Christendom.

    I'm simply pointing out that the Vikings (more rightly called the Norse I believe) had a culture where you defended your honor against all forms of disrespect. If someone harmed your family, you took revenge. If someone even looked at you funny, you could rightly (in their eyes) challenge them to battle and kill them. The victor was understood to be in the right. No doubt, sometimes the killing came before the challenge. The Norse called this honor. The same behavior exists in our own society among some people, but we call it murder.
     
  18. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    Not knowingly I’m sure, but you were repeating the kind of false propaganda that was invented to discredit any and all non-Christian cultures and faiths. Most people still believe much of it today, which is why it needs challenging whenever it comes up.

    And I was pointing out that this is false propaganda. The “pagan” cultures were generally no more or less violent or vicious than their Christian neighbours. Duels to the death probably did happen in early periods, though that was true in the early Christina period too. In both cases, they generally transitioned to “first blood” kind of rules in later times.

    The bottom line is that the Norse people were no more or less violent or murderous than their Christian contemporaries and, of course, in later periods many of them converted to Christianity without a vast shift in culture or behaviour.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I don’t think that we can “prove God’s existence.” I don’t particularly have a need to prove God — and I certainly don’t “worry about. It.” For me, God just is.
     
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  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I suppose it depends on what that “something” is. Is that “something” a man with a long white beard and a white robe — an “invisible sky daddy?” Is it a Flying Spaghetti Monster? What if God is none of those things? Perhaps, in your view, God is “The Great Nothingness?” Perhaps, in my view, God is “Being Itself.” Is there “Being,” and do we dwell within it? I can’t prove that there is, or that we do. But I can embrace experience.
     
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