DandyAndy
Active Member
A 20 year old man shoots someone in the head. It took a split second to pull the trigger. Yet he gets life in prison.
Is that unfair?
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
A 20 year old man shoots someone in the head. It took a split second to pull the trigger. Yet he gets life in prison.
Is that unfair?
Me Myself
Back to my username
at contrair, for something to be practical it most have a why not otherwise.
Nothing is practical "just because". It is practical because it serves a purpose. that is what being practical is all about. Punishments serve the purposes that I listed you in the example of jail. Which other purpose do they serve?
(and yeah we use opinions to chat
)
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Punishment is used to discourage behaviour. Punishment that cannot possibly discourage behavior (because you can't offend again) is not justice; it is petty revenge.
No. Infinite punishment would be, however.
DandyAndy
Active Member
If by evil you mean sin then I answer no. If a man is without sin, he is righteous and goes to heaven. He is not in need of a pardon because he is innocent according to the law.
But no such man has ever lived - except Jesus.
Me Myself
Back to my username
depends on a lot of factors. Mainly the ones I listed you before. Jail is about people not wanting to do bad stuff in the first place. But you don´t need ETERNAL suffering for that. Even if you did, God could just retract himself at the end and not send anyone to hell. He HAS retracted on punishment before.
In the bible with Jonas he said that ninive would be destroyed. But in the end he took it back cause they repented.
DandyAndy
Active Member
at contrair, for something to be practical it most have a why not otherwise.
Nothing is practical "just because". It is practical because it serves a purpose. that is what being practical is all about. Punishments serve the purposes that I listed you in the example of jail. Which other purpose do they serve?
(and yeah we use opinions to chat
Hehe I wasn't trying to be mean or anything, that's just my favorite quote from one of my favorite movies.
Anyway, punishment is practical because it serves a point - it punishes the one that deserves it.
I don't mean sin, I mean the sort of things that would get you thrown in jail i.e. your actions. Murderer's for example deserve punishment. Thought crime does not.
Really? God has the power to convict people of thought crimes i.e. convicting someone of looking lustfully at someone. How can we know Jesus was any different?
Me Myself
Back to my username
Its cool, you were making sure, me too xD
Well what I mean it that according to Jesus it is not good in itself to give people what they "deserve" but to forgive them. Even when he was being crucified he asked his father "forgive them because they don´t know what they are doing" was he wrong? Or was he teaching us that we all need and diserve forgiveness?
The reason humans think "he got what he deserved" is generaly an attitude of vengance, and vengance comes from not being able to forgive. This would be the third reason punishment exists. but THIS reason was specifically taught by Jesus to not be good because he taught forgiveness. He said "If you that are bad give your children what they ask of you, why the father that is in heavens would not give you what you ask for?" on the same reasoning: If we that are bad can forgive our children, why wouldn´t God that is good going to forgive his children?
If we that are bad would never send our child to an eternal hell why would God that is good do so?
I think it is important to reflect on that
DandyAndy
Active Member
You are defining punishment. Punishment is a penalty inflicted for an offense. It can be used to deter behavior, but that is not what its basic purpose is.
I cannot count the amount of sinning I have done in 26 years of life - I can't imagine how much I could do in 80 years - and I've been a Christian trying to do what is right most of my life. I've screwed up a lot.
I can't imagine how much higher the number would be for someone else that just doesn't care and does whatever they want and lives to be 80.
God sees all that for every person. Every lie, every rape, every murder, every theft, every hurtful word, every lustful thought - everything. We can't see that - like I said, my personal list of sins is so long I can't remember most of them.
I think God is in a MUCH better position to judge - no man should judge another's eternal fate - only God can do so fairly and fully.
DandyAndy
Active Member
The only problem with this is that you are defining what is right and wrong, or what would be sin. In the Christian world view, the one I adhere to and believe to be true, God defines what is right and wrong, God gives us the Law. Not just some dude or some king or a president or whatever. He makes it very clear and obvious to ALL people as well.
Yes. Jesus spoke about that in Matthew 5. That's a very good question - we can't fully know his thoughts - but if the resurrection is true (evidence points to yes) - then we can be assured that he was perfect in both action and thought. The perfection of Jesus (white lamb, 0 blemishes, etc) is ESSENTIAL to Christian beliefs because only a perfect sacrifice could pay for our sins.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
What is its basic purpose?
How do you know God is the one who gives you the law? Also the modern moral law is very clear and obvious to all people
What evidence points to Jesus resurrection? Also I'm aware Jesus is essential to your beliefs being an ex-believer myself.
DandyAndy
Active Member
You make lots of good points. I've got to go, but will try to touch on them really quick. I might edit later to include Bible verses...
It IS good for us to forgive others, because our Father in heaven has forgiven us through Christ. I will find the verse later - but this is a VERY good point. If we are Christians we should forgive others because God forgave us. If someone is not a Christian, they have no real reason to forgive people (other than to make nice or get what they want or be a 'good person').
He was not wrong - that cry was a huge indication of his unfailing love - even when people were hurting him, he still loved them and he knew that because of what he was doing, people could be forgiven.
You are right to say that we all need forgiveness. But no one deserves it.
I don't know about what you say about vengeance, but I'll look into it. That verse you quote, in Matthew 7, Jesus talks about how a man that is evil gives its child good things so of course God who is good will give His children good things as well - in this life but so much more in the next life.
But if our child was rebellious and always bad, eventually you have to let them go because they have chosen it for themselves - obviously this happens at an older age with us (18 I suppose) when we aren't 'kids' but we have grown up enough to make our own decision.
As humans we have all grown up enough to make our own decisions - ultimately our way or God's way - and God loves us enough to give us that choice freely and if we choose against Him we have to live with the consequences even though He doesn't want us to, we chose it and God won't violate that free will.
It IS good for us to forgive others, because our Father in heaven has forgiven us through Christ. I will find the verse later - but this is a VERY good point. If we are Christians we should forgive others because God forgave us. If someone is not a Christian, they have no real reason to forgive people (other than to make nice or get what they want or be a 'good person').
He was not wrong - that cry was a huge indication of his unfailing love - even when people were hurting him, he still loved them and he knew that because of what he was doing, people could be forgiven.
You are right to say that we all need forgiveness. But no one deserves it.
I don't know about what you say about vengeance, but I'll look into it. That verse you quote, in Matthew 7, Jesus talks about how a man that is evil gives its child good things so of course God who is good will give His children good things as well - in this life but so much more in the next life.
But if our child was rebellious and always bad, eventually you have to let them go because they have chosen it for themselves - obviously this happens at an older age with us (18 I suppose) when we aren't 'kids' but we have grown up enough to make our own decision.
As humans we have all grown up enough to make our own decisions - ultimately our way or God's way - and God loves us enough to give us that choice freely and if we choose against Him we have to live with the consequences even though He doesn't want us to, we chose it and God won't violate that free will.
DandyAndy
Active Member
I don't think we, as humans, can talk about whether or not eternal punishment is fair because #1 our viewpoint is skewed and incomplete and #2 we didn't make the laws or the rules. If - and this is a big if - God kind of hid the fact that Hell was eternal or didn't offer a way of escaping eternal Hell, then we could call it unfair. But all the cards are on the table to see and the way to avoid Hell is painfully obvious, and we as humans do a LOT of terrible terrible things, so I don't see any unfairness with the punishment.
The punishment we deserve has to be paid for. The only metaphor I can think of is like running up a tab - someone has to pay for it. OT sacrifice covered the sin until someone could pay for it - the one that could pay was Jesus - only he can 'pay our tab' or 'wipe clean our slate.'
You are 100% correct about the Jonah story - God did spare the city - but He only spared it because after they heard the message of God from Jonah they repented, meaning they realized they were doing evil and in the wrong, they admitted to it, apologized and changed their ways. Would God have spared the city if they had not repented and turned from their evil ways?
Mercy is a gift so it must be received. It was offered to Ninive and they accepted it. If they didn't accept it and continued to do their own evil thing and refused to admit they were wrong and in need of mercy, how could they receive the gift of mercy?
DandyAndy
Active Member
A penalty inflicted for a punishment, retribution.
DandyAndy
Active Member
There is the 10 Commandments, Jesus and the writings of people like Paul. I also count the moral sense that all humans have as the law from God that governs all people - you know, what people always talk about in the moral argument - I believe this is from God. And this law is very clear to all humans with the capacity to understand it (which is 99% of humanity).
I'm not so good at explaining it - search for William Lane Craig's explanation - he covers it in the debate with Christopher Hitchens and I'm sure other places as well. Basically he talks about the historical evidence of Jesus life, of the empty tomb and of the apostles being so adamant as to go against their former Jewish beliefs and spread a new message that is so radical that the only explanation for them doing so is that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. **please listen for yourself or read about it somewhere else for a good overview - I'm no scholar or theologian.
Anyway, this commandment that says I cannot drive at 120mph. We seem to have worked this out for ourselves and if social animals other than us can evolve rules with which to live by without a god why cannot we?
So I guess that you are arguing for an objective moral law, given to us by God?
As for the Hitchens vs Craig debate I'll answer after I've watched the debate.
DandyAndy
Active Member
You are free to believe that but I don't buy it and I don't think it works - at best that would lead to a majority rules and the others that don't agree with it are either excluded or exterminated, at best leading to war and terror and death - which is what we have right now. And that's the BEST case scenario the way I see it - we need some kind of outside morality given us by an outside force to keep us in line and on the same 'level' so to speak. When you put people on different levels, when they determine their own worth and their own right and wrong, you get genocide and the holocaust - but if we make up the rules, I guess that would be ok, so long as the majority go along with it.
That's not for me.
DandyAndy
Active Member
Yes I believe that to be the case - I explained why I feel that way in another post just before this one.
Ok - it's a long debate, I think the part I'm referring to is the 3rd or 4th argument Craig makes in his opening remarks?