Hell is also something God created. Funny though that murderer's can be saved from hell and escape justice. God's offer? Says who? Also how can we know Jesus even existed and did all the stuff written in the bible??
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Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?
- Thread starter Lord_Dweedle
- Start date
Hell is also something God created. Funny though that murderer's can be saved from hell and escape justice. God's offer? Says who? Also how can we know Jesus even existed and did all the stuff written in the bible??
The confusion, I think, would be around who you really are. This hypothetical leaves a bit to be desired, and not the least of that is "who am I really?"
waitasec
Veteran Member
skeptical.
it is morally wrong to take someone's culpability and responsibility as your own, even mine.
I said "who you really are."
Are you skeptical about being skeptical.
Skeptical about all things. Really really?
Perhaps I could quiz you, even surprise test you in other threads, and perhaps you show up consistent in all such tests. In which case, I may say (to myself), this one appears most skeptical. And Self will likely say, "this is not who waitasec REALLY is."
Not sure what you are saying. Feel free to elaborate for plausible clarity. And while doing that, would you say it is 'morally wrong' to be determiner of someone's culpability and responsibility for perceived wrongdoing?
waitasec
Veteran Member
i am skeptical.
it doesn't matter what you think of me, what i think of myself is much much more important.
if i offered to pay for your debt by dying for your wrongdoing, i am taking what is yours and only yours something that cannot be taken away because it is a part of who you are.
society decides what is the appropriate punishment not a single person, that would place the determiner in a superior position over the wrongdoer where any wrongdoing is subjected an arbitrary standard.
pwfaith
Active Member
Why am I having deja vu?
Who around the first century wrote that the gospels were not true?
The biblical hell [Hebrew sheol; Greek hades/haides] is just the common grave of mankind where the dead sleep the deep sleep of unconscious death until they are resurrected. Such as Jesus being in the Bible's hell.
-Acts 2vs27,31,32; Ecclesiastes 9 vs5,10; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4
Jesus taught: the dead sleep. -John 11vs11-14.
The wicked are not destroyed in the biblical hell but in: Gehenna.
In Bible days Gehenna was a trash pit were things were destroyed.
So Gehenna [English hellfire] is just a fitting symbol for destruction.
-Psalm 92v7
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Maybe you're just a fast learner.
common grave for mankind...while there is a second death
god would "never" go to a place of torture and punishment while
death and the grave is "ONLY" for sinners so jesus went there as sin but not to a place of torture and punishment...what was the purpose then?
Do you recall what is the wage [price] that sin pays according to Rom. 6v23 ?
Doesn't the Bible say that 'death' is the penalty [wage] for sin?
Rom 6v7 says 'death' [inherited death] frees or acquits a person from sin.
Not meaning innocent, but as a judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick. [Jesus is the Judge that can do that for us].
Where is there in Scripture a post-mortem penalty after death?
We die because we can not stop sinning due to 'inherited death' from Adam.
The wicked will die Not from 'inherited death' but from 'second death' meaning no further existence anywhere in heaven or on earth.
The wicked are classed as those of Matt. 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6; 10vs26,27
The rest of mankind either go to heaven [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10] to reign with Christ for a thousand years, or will live on earth as earthly subjects of God's kingdom. -Psalm 72v8.
So, the purpose of Jesus dying faithful was so that he could balance the scales of justice for us by undoing what Adam brought upon us.
Adam undid our opportunity for everlasting life.
Jesus makes everlasting life for us possible either heavenly or earthly.
I'd be skeptical of that if I were you.
Disagree, it could be part of who we are. There is no separation.
Thank you for helping to make the point.
We appreciate this.
waitasec
Veteran Member
waitasec
Veteran Member
Killetzbaal
Priest of Baal
Did you know the Israelite god Yahweh which evolved into the monotheist god was originally only the god of war?
I'm not aware of any people in the first century writing that the bible was not true. You could probably say the say about the Qur'an though. Your point?
God still made Gehenna though, or at least allowed it to exist.
DandyAndy
Active Member
He is both. He is just for punishing those that deserve it, He is loving for offering mercy to those that don't deserve it AND for giving EVERYONE a chance to enjoy a (sometimes) beautiful life and be forgiven of their mistakes.
I don't see your point at all.
DandyAndy
Active Member
I don't think the problem is with the text or what God has laid out for us...the problem seems to be your own personal feelings towards it - which is cool, I get that, not knocking you for it - I just think that's what this boils down to.
I could totally be wrong though.
I just don't see any inconsistency or unfairness in the whole thing - I could be bias, but a large part of why I chose Christianity is because it did make sense to me.
We are all wicked compared to the perfect God that gave us life, we deserve to be separated form Him because of sin, He offered us mercy and grace in the form of a pardon (Christ) to pay for our mistakes, if we accept it we reap the rewards of it and if we deny it we suffer the consequences of it.
Jesus talked more about the consequences than He did the reward because God wanted to be SURE that everyone understood the consequences of what they were facing. It all sounds fair and makes sense to me.
You do realize that mercy and justice are in conflict, right? Mercy is a suspention of justice. So, is your god merciful or just? I don't see how he can be both.
DandyAndy
Active Member
I see no such conflict.
As the judge He is able to give mercy as He sees fit - since mercy isn't a requirement, He doesn't have to offer it. Gifts are freely given, not required. But He does offer mercy, which is why He is loving.
There is nothing inconsistent with mercy and justice UNLESS those that rejected mercy were also let off the hook - the rejection of mercy necessitates the action required of judgement, which is punishment. This is why many OT people question God about the wicked and the righteous receiving the same fate - if they did receive the same fate, that would be unjust.
He can be both merciful and just, He is the judge, I see no conflict at all.
Ok, do you believe god is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just? If he is offering mercy where he sees fit, that fine, but you cannot claim that he is then just in that scenerio. And then you have the issue of what makes one person deserving of justice and another deserving of mercy.
Perfect justice and perfect mercy cannot exist, they are a conflict, because as I said earlier, mercy is a suspention of justice.
DandyAndy
Active Member
Why do you describe Him as being 'perfectly merciful?'
Everyone deserves justice, no one deserves mercy. Mercy cannot be deserved or earned or bought - it is freely given and thus can only be freely accepted.