Why there is no way back for religion in the West

[Sunstone]

Interesting video. It seems religion worldwide declines as a nation's wealth and other factors increase. Moreover, in the West, religion has been in slow, generational decline for the past century. That is, each generation has been a little less religious than the one before it.

The argument that there is no way back from this decline seems to hinge on the notion that people find it very difficult in general to convert to a religion as adults. That is, most -- but not all -- people raised in non-religious households will stay non-religious as adults.

Questions? Comments?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Nice interesting video thank you. I think there is something missing from the presentation I'd like to mention.

Interesting video. It seems religion worldwide declines as a nation's wealth and other factors increase. Moreover, in the West, religion has been in slow, generational decline for the past century. That is, each generation has been a little less religious than the one before it.

The video focuses on religion in the West and partly makes the mistake of extending its findings to all religions. In other words it goes from the specific example of Christianity and generalizes -- too much. It builds its case by mentioning that most undeveloped countries are more religious than developed ones but overlooks that developed countries are overwhelmingly Christian, and so the results should not be generalized to all religions without treating the possibility that the specific religion matters. Perhaps statistically the video feels it can account for the variables and generalize but no explanation is given. Specifically it mentions Dubai is the exception in that is both wealthy and very religious and dismisses the difference, but it should be noted that Dubai is Muslim not Christian or Catholic or Hindu. It is developed, Muslim and remains very religious. Its not Hindu, developed and very religious or Christian, developed and very religious. Just because it was very religious before the oil boom does not mean that the specific religion is not a factor. What I am saying is the video mistakenly treats all religions in the same way.

The argument that there is no way back from this decline seems to hinge on the notion that people find it very difficult in general to convert to a religion as adults. That is, most -- but not all -- people raised in non-religious households will stay non-religious as adults.

Questions? Comments?

He is hoping the religions will go away. He is most likely incorrect. He reveals this by appealing to the idea of no religion in the future without having treated some glaring flaws.

Yes, it does seem that in Christian developed society that there seems evidence to support a decrease in religion and unwillingness for people to convert. It does not follow that all religions will continue to decline when their economies become developed and technology is more accessible.

 

[Vouthon]

Nice interesting video thank you. I think there is something missing from the presentation I'd like to mention.

The video focuses on religion in the West and partly makes the mistake of extending its findings to all religions. In other words it goes from the specific example of Christianity and generalizes -- too much. It builds its case by mentioning that most undeveloped countries are more religious than developed ones but overlooks that developed countries are overwhelmingly Christian, and so the results should not be generalized to all religions without treating the possibility that the specific religion matters. Perhaps statistically the video feels it can account for the variables and generalize but no explanation is given. Specifically it mentions Dubai is the exception in that is both wealthy and very religious and dismisses the difference, but it should be noted that Dubai is Muslim not Christian or Catholic or Hindu. It is developed, Muslim and remains very religious. Its not Hindu, developed and very religious or Christian, developed and very religious. Just because it was very religious before the oil boom does not mean that the specific religion is not a factor. What I am saying is the video mistakenly treats all religions in the same way.


He is hoping the religions will go away. He is most likely incorrect. He reveals this by appealing to the idea of no religion in the future without having treated some glaring flaws.

Yes, it does seem that in Christian developed society that there seems evidence to support a decrease in religion and unwillingness for people to convert. It does not follow that all religions will continue to decline when their economies become developed and technology is more accessible.

Indeed, there is also the fact that in emerging global powers outside the West like China, Christianity is increasingly becoming the religion of choice for the sophisticated, urban middle classes.

In other words, as Chinese people increase their wealth and standard of living, their likelihood of being Christian also increases (i.e. because Christians tend to be middle-class).

This same trend is occurring all across South-East Asia:


Evangelicalism is spreading among the Chinese of South-East Asia

Evangelicalism is spreading among the Chinese of South-East Asia

Devotees are “too blessed to be stressed”

Jan 4th 2018|
Evangelical and Pentecostal Christianity is growing more quickly in Asia than most parts of the world, with over 200m adherents in 2015, up from 17m in 1970. The largest congregations are in South Korea and the Philippines, where dazzlingly large mega-churches hold tens of thousands of people. But Christian zeal is also increasing in other parts of the continent, including Indonesia and Malaysia, where proselytising among the Muslim majority is well nigh impossible, but where Buddhists, Confucians and Christians of other denominations, almost all of them ethnically Chinese, are proving receptive...

Most evangelicals see the growth of their churches as God’s work. But it also seems to have an aspirational element to it. “It is the de facto middle-class religion right now,” says Mr Chong. According to a study he conducted in 2013, over 50% of mega-church-goers had a university degree, a higher proportion than Christians of other sorts. That was in spite of the fact that mega-church Christians were more likely to have lived in public housing and to come from working-class backgrounds. They were also more likely to speak Chinese and to come from families which were not previously Christian.

Friendly ushers and peppy slogans (“too blessed to be stressed”) make the churches appealingly accessible. They are also good spots for making business connections. Churches in Singapore are places where people network with those they trust, says Thomas Harvey of the Oxford Centre of Mission Studies, a British charity. The feeling is that “these are people we know, these are people of integrity, character, education,” he says.
​

But these facts are not yet recognised by a lot Western and especially Eurocentric academics, who are obsessed with the empirically untested notion that Western norms of secularization working-in-tandem with higher living standards is some universally applicable 'social rule' across cultures.

It isn't, rather it betrays the bias of an ever increasingly more marginal part of the world (the West is declining in influence with every passing decade, while China and India rise). We are no longer the torchbearers and trend-setters for the rest of the planet.

By 2050, China will have more Christians than any other country in the world and Hindu India will have become a true powerhouse, with some even suggesting it may become a developed country.

And I see little evidence to suggest that Islamic religiosity in majority Muslim countries will be significantly dented by any projected rise in living standards or economic productivity, as you indicate with reference to Dubai and the Arab Emirates.

The decline in Christian attendance and affiliation in the West should, I think, be attributed to factors inherent to Christian churches and their failures, than it is to religion as a whole or supernatural beliefs (the latter of which remain stubbornly persistent as we can see from horoscopes and belief in superstitious luck).

 

[sun rise]

I don't have 15 minutes to watch that talk, but the decline in organized religion has been documented by many surveys with Pew coming to mind.

I agree that exclusivist (to coin a word) religions are declining in the West. But as @Vouthon noted, this is not the case in countries that were forced atheist such as China. Overall and over time I suspect the same trend will occur in China once they've "caught up" with the West in religious adherence.

It's also been noted, behind a paywall, that there's a trend for evangelicals to engage in ecumenical exchanges which is to me part of the trend of the decrease in separative tendencies. How Evangelicals Do Ecumenism and this extends to interfaith cooperation.

 

[Skwim]

I see the question of how close to annihilation will religion in the west come. Will it peter out to a few churches scattered here and there filled by those who needfully cling to religion for support, or will it utterly fail to support itself and have to close all its doors? Although I see this possibility, I don't see it happening without the germ of religious psychological benefit being kept alive. I can see religion being eventually stripped of all its written dogma and physical artifacts, and simply surviving on those few notions that bring comfort to the few who require it. It will be "Religion: the crutch of the weak."

.

 

[Woberts]

I see the question of how close to annihilation will religion in the west come. Will it peter out to a few churches scattered here and there filled by those who needfully cling to religion for support, or will it utterly fail to support itself and have to close all its doors? Although I see this possibility, I don't see it happening without the germ of religious psychological benefit being kept alive. I can see religion being eventually stripped of all its written dogma and physical artifacts, and simply surviving on those few notions that bring comfort to the few who require it. It will be "religion, the crutch of the weak."

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Well said!

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think it has a lot to do with our progress as a society. We are slowly weeding out myth from the facts and realizing what was believed then is best left for a generation long ago.

It certainly rings the death knell for a fair number of religions that will pretty much disappear into obscurity. Remembered in the same way as the pantheon of the gods in ancient days are remembered now.

Either way, I think there are religions today that have already passed the point of no return while I think the surviving ones will take on a more holistic flavor in the future.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I think it has a lot to do with our progress as a society. We are slowly weeding out myth from the facts and realizing what was believed then is best left for a generation long ago.

You didn't watch the video, did you?

 

[Ellen Brown]

I agree. For me, a rational belief in existence must include both Theology and Science. Both sentiments existed from the beginning, and it is man (or satan ???) who has tried to exclude one or another since. I've been a devout religionist, and always felt that the experts were trying to exclude something important from the tale. It's been an impediment that the very educated often try to exclude belief and for me when an argument gets to "either/or", it is not worth my time.

It is well documented that religiophiles in the past have ridiculed and even murdered many who were having scientific thoughts. In my lifetime, I have seen those numerous offenses often repaid, to my satisfaction.

Disappointingly, I've not seen the formation of dualistic thought groups, though they must exist. Religion as it now exists in my own experience will continue to impede the development of a Humanity that is pleasing to the Creator. So much that we ponder in belief will likely receive at least a partial explanation from Science, particularly in higher Physics.

 

[Windwalker]

Interesting video. It seems religion worldwide declines as a nation's wealth and other factors increase. Moreover, in the West, religion has been in slow, generational decline for the past century. That is, each generation has been a little less religious than the one before it.

The argument that there is no way back from this decline seems to hinge on the notion that people find it very difficult in general to convert to a religion as adults. That is, most -- but not all -- people raised in non-religious households will stay non-religious as adults.

Questions? Comments?

That was excellent! I'm going to enjoy watching that a number of times. There is a lot there to unpack, and it all rings as true to me.

Yes, I agree, there's likely no coming back. In fact, what others see happening with the rise of evangelical and fundamentalist type churches, is a sign of that ultimate collapse. Think of them like the rising center of a column of water after you drop a rock into pond. Fundamentalism if a sign of the implosion of the mainstream of Christianity. They're being thrown up into the air as the middle goes kerplunk.

That'll settle down, and dissipate quickly because it does not have the mass of mainline traditionalism. While "we've got the restored truth" may be attractive to those displaced by the collapse, a generation or more later and it just can't be sustained anymore. Kids aren't willing to lobotomize their minds in the face of thoroughly modern world. They'll just think differently, and all that magic-for-science stuff will blow away like the dust of forgotten superstitions alway have.

 

[Axe Elf]

Yes, it will be awesome when religion is eradicated and all men can live in direct communion with God.

 

[Vouthon]

I would also flag up this recent article from the Guardian newspaper here in the UK, published in August 2018.

It is newer than the OP's Ted talk by David Voas (2015) and takes stock of a more global picture:

Religion: why faith is becoming more and more popular

Faith is on the rise and 84% of the global population identifies with a religious group. What does it mean for the future?

​

So, while I agree with the analysis of Western decline in religiosity and living standards, I dispute the applicability of this paradigm to other regions of the world, where contravening trends are at work.

 

[Brickjectivity]

...In fact, what others see happening with the rise of evangelical and fundamentalist type churches, is a sign of that ultimate collapse. Think of them like the rising center of a column of water after you drop a rock into pond. Fundamentalism if a sign of the implosion of the mainstream of Christianity. They're being thrown up into the air as the middle goes kerplunk...

I see that, but I view it as a painful and unnecessarily destructive change ruining many lives, not something cute. Life is an investment, and individuals ought to get something out of it other than disappointment. What are these people going to do when that wave crashes?

That'll settle down, and dissipate quickly because it does not have the mass of mainline traditionalism. While "we've got the restored truth" may be attractive to those displaced by the collapse, a generation or more later and it just can't be sustained anymore. Kids aren't willing to lobotomize their minds in the face of thoroughly modern world. They'll just think differently, and all that magic-for-science stuff will blow away like the dust of forgotten superstitions alway have.

That is awful and the worst possible scenario I can imagine. These are people not lemmings. Its not Ok for there to be a worldwide Great Disappointment.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Interesting video. It seems religion worldwide declines as a nation's wealth and other factors increase. Moreover, in the West, religion has been in slow, generational decline for the past century. That is, each generation has been a little less religious than the one before it.

The argument that there is no way back from this decline seems to hinge on the notion that people find it very difficult in general to convert to a religion as adults. That is, most -- but not all -- people raised in non-religious households will stay non-religious as adults.

Questions? Comments?

I enjoyed watching the video. He used New Zealand as an example of the secularisation process and much of what he said certainly applies to our small country of nearly 5 million people living in the remote Pacific. We tend to be most like Canadians and Western European countries.

We are unquestionably a developed and propserous nation that rates highly on global indexes of peace, prosperity and development. We are relatively diverse and multicultural compared to some of our European allies.

There's another part of the story the speaker didn't mention. We seem to be witnessing high numbers of mental health problems, suicide, addictions, marriage breakdown, workplace bullying and dysfunction. Significant proportions of the younger generation appear self centred, less able to cope with life, disengaged with politics and avoidant of any organisation that promotes the betterment of the community including religion.

There have been excellent points made about other issues the talk doesn't address. Pew research examines international trends which are very different from the relative small minority of Western secular countries. In 50 years while Christianity holds steady at over 30 % of the world's population, Islam is set to overtake the number of Christians. The number of atheists/agnostics will decline. This is simply population projections based on birth rates. Atheists for example, don't have as many children as Muslims.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

 

[Ellen Brown]

I enjoyed watching the video. He used New Zealand as an example of the secularisation process and much of what he said certainly applies to our small country of nearly 5 million people living in the remote Pacific. We tend to be most like Canadians and Western European countries.

We are unquestionably a developed and propserous nation that rates highly on global indexes of peace, prosperity and development. We are relatively diverse and multicultural compared to some of our European allies.

There's another part of the story the speaker didn't mention. We seem to be witnessing high numbers of mental health problems, suicide, addictions, marriage breakdown, workplace bullying and dysfunction. Significant proportions of the younger generation appear self centred, less able to cope with life, disengaged with politics and avoidant of any organisation that promotes the betterment of the community including religion.

There have been excellent points made about other issues the talk doesn't address. Pew research examines international trends which are very different from the relative small minority of Western secular countries. In 50 years while Christianity holds steady at over 30 % of the world's population, Islam is set to overtake the number of Christians. The number of atheists/agnostics will decline. This is simply population projections based on birth rates. Atheists for example, don't have as many children as Muslims.

Why Muslims are the world’s fastest-growing religious group

So fewer radical Christians? Jolly good then. Fewer angry anti religionists? Perhaps world culture will just let people get on with their business then? Perhaps people will accept that religion alone cannot be proven or disproven. But if we begin to use the higher Sciences to look at the things where religion fails, perhaps we'll get somewhere.

Having lots of exposure to Islam, I doubt that it is the fastest growing religion, though I would favor it if they had a more moderate view about Jesus Christ.

 

[stvdv]

Interesting video. It seems religion worldwide declines as a nation's wealth and other factors increase. Moreover, in the West, religion has been in slow, generational decline for the past century. That is, each generation has been a little less religious than the one before it.
The argument that there is no way back from this decline seems to hinge on the notion that people find it very difficult in general to convert to a religion as adults. That is, most -- but not all -- people raised in non-religious households will stay non-religious as adults.
Questions? Comments?

I really like the way he is talking. Non agressive at all. Just sharing his view without belittling or bagatellizing feelings of religious people. Well done.

He mentions: Meaning, purpose, solice, ultimate justice, reunited with loved ones, life after death as reasons to be(come) religious.
Strange, but those are none of my reasons at all. Probably he is not religious himself and this is how he perceives religious people.

I do think that religion is on the decline and religion might disappear in the West. My explanation is very simple:
1) In the West religion has been imposed (by proselytizing) on people using fear for God, fear of sin, fear of Hell. Fear is not a good motivator
2) Now with the internet and free communication people see that it's not God doing the killing but it's just people doing the killing. 1 fear is gone.
3) Priests tell Hell exists. BUT they sexual abuse even kids. This proves to me that Hell is unreal created by priests etc. to control us by fear.
4) Mystical experience is hard to get. Sense enjoyment is easy accessable, spiritual Bliss not. You need strong faith to continue this path.
5) Hurt Never, Help Ever is spiritual life to me. Atheists have these morals also. No need for theists to feel superior and belittle atheists

Some have spiritual goals others material goals. If people stick to their own goals and don't belittle goals of others most problems will be solved,

 

[stvdv]

It will be "Religion: the crutch of the weak."

Is this belittling verse an objective truth or your subjective retaliation because many religious people belittle others and see themselves as superior?

 

[Dawnofhope]

So fewer radical Christians? Jolly good then. Fewer angry anti religionists? Perhaps world culture will just let people get on with their business then? Perhaps people will accept that religion alone cannot be proven or disproven. But if we begin to use the higher Sciences to look at the things where religion fails, perhaps we'll get somewhere.

Having lots of exposure to Islam, I doubt that it is the fastest growing religion, though I would favor it if they had a more moderate view about Jesus Christ.

New Zealand may be an example of where the USA ends up. Radical Christianity is rightly discredited. Politicians here never wear their religion on their sleeve unless they want to commit polical suicide.

Sadly religion frequently a cause of division and hatred. We cope by avoiding talking about it. Being a modern country with high levels of tertiary education people here are more able to critically evaluate their beliefs.

Islam is growing rapidly in the more undeveloped regions of Africa and Asia. I believe it will eventually go through a similar process of secularisation the West has undergone that necessitates adapting to the modern world.

One could argue five outcomes for us all with religion:
1/ A fundamentalism/orthodox practice of a traditional religion such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism
2/ A moderate/liberal approach
3/ Becoming a nominal member of a religion. Eg going to church at Christmas only
4/ Leaving religion altogether
5/ A new religious movement that draws on the positive traditions of the past but offers a very different paradigm that fits with the modern world, science and religious diversity.

I've taken option number five. Whether that works the best, time will tell,

 

[Skwim]

Is this belittling verse an objective truth or your subjective retaliation because many religious people belittle others and see themselves as superior?

Well it certainly can't be an objective truth because it would take place in the future, and I'm not a gypsy fortune teller with prescient knowledge. As far as being a "belittling verse," this subjective conclusion is no doubt based on your objection that religion is used as a crutch. Now to me, a crutch is anything that helps a person get along, and why would they need help in getting along? Could it be because they're too weak to cope on their own? I think it is. Of course you may disagree, but that's your choice; define crutch however you like.

[H]ere are the top 10 reasons given by Americans who attend religious services at least once a month, according to Pew. Survey respondents were allowed to give more than one reason. The percentage refers to people who said this was a "very important" reason for their decision:

To become closer to God. (81%)
So their children will have a moral foundation. (69%)
To become a better person. (68%)
For comfort in times of trouble or sorrow. (66%)
They find the sermons valuable. (59%)
To be part of a faith community. (57%)
To continue their family's religious traditions. (37%)
They feel obligated to go. (31%)
To meet new people or socialize. (19%)
To please their family, spouse or partner. (16%)
source​

Please note the reason I've highlighted in red. This is the "crutch" I was talking about, and according to the Pew poll it's the fourth most popular reason people have for going to church. Now you're certainly free to disagree and conclude that you can see religion being eventually stripped of all its written dogma and physical artifacts, and simply surviving on those few notions that bring comfort to the few who require it. It will be "Religion: the way to get closer to god."

OR

"Religion: the way to continue one's family's religious traditions."

OR

"Religion: the way to please one's family, spouse or partner.."

OR

"Religion: a reason to get out of the house."


I don't. I happen to see it ending up as being "Religion: a means of comfort in times of trouble or sorrow. The crutch of the weak."

As for "many religious people belittle others and see themselves as superior." This is almost a given, although I'd change the "many" to "a few." And this is fine with me. I appreciate the opinions of those I respect, and pretty much to hell with all the others. And just to be clear, I start out appreciating the opinions of everyone until given reason not to.

.

 

[stvdv]

I don't. I happen to see it ending up as being "Religion: a means of comfort in times of trouble or sorrow. The crutch of the weak."

Thanks for the elaboration. I understand now better why you see it that way.

For me spirituality is my way of living. I am intrigued by it, like I am intrigued by science. I like to discover about science and spirit.

Others are intrigued by women and sex and relationships. For many, many people relationship is their comfort. Being alone is their sorrow

So, yes, I see your point. For those people "Sex and relationship is the crutch to their weakness". I don't need that crutch, I prefer the spiritual crutch.