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Why Pretending That Captive Markets Are Free Markets Doesn't Work

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Let's say there are only two gas stations in a town. One on the east side and the other on the west. And until now, they have both charged the same price per gallon of gas, thinking that if they raise it, their customers will go to the other station for gas. But today, the owner of the eastern gas station decides that this is not the case. He decides that his customers are not going to bother driving all the way to the other station to get their gas if he raises his own gas price by a penny per gallon, because the cost of the drive would erase the savings gained by it. So he does raise his price by a penny. And it turns out that he's right. People don't bother driving across town to save one penny per gallon on their gas.

Now, the owner of the west side gas station sees this, and sees that he has gained no new customers by keeping his gas price a penny lower, so he decides to raise his gas price by two pennies, thinking that if it worked for the west side owner, it'll work for him. And it does! Because even though he has raised his gas price by two cents per gallon, his patrons would still have to pay one cent per gallon more if they drove across town. So all they would be saving themselves is one cent per gallon, and that savings would be eaten up by the extra mileage. So they pay the two cents more for the convenience of not driving to the other side of town for their gas.

Now let's say this little 'price war' goes on for a while, and it results in both station owners charging 10 cents more per gallon for their gas, because the only alternative for their customers is to drive to the next town to buy cheaper gas. And, of course, the drive would just use up ten cent-per-gallon savings on the extra mileage incurred, getting there and back. So they aren't happy about it, but they have to pay the high price, because they have to have gasoline for their cars.

And anyway, we all know that the station owners in the next town will raise their prices accordingly because the station owners in the first town did, and they got away with it.

The problem, here, is that people have to buy gas for their cars, and the people providing that commodity all know it. So the sellers are not going to compete with each other for the lowest price and biggest share of customers. That would only hurt their profit margin (giving more, and getting less). Their goal is not to sell more product, but to sell less product for significantly more money. Because they profit more by giving less out and taking more in. And they ALL share this same goal. So they don't have to meet in back rooms and price-fix to pursue it. They will collude simply by all pursuing the same goal. Price-fixing and price gouging are technically illegal, and so is collusion, but they are nearly impossible to prove when the participants never have to meet or even speak to each other, to do it.

A captive market is a market in which the buyers have to buy from someone, and the sellers all know it. It changes the dynamics considerably when the buyers cannot refuse to buy. As they can in a "free market". Here in the U.S. most of us think we are living in a "free market economy". But in fact everything that we NEED TO BUY to live in a modern, interdependent society is in fact being sold in a captive market. And for that reason the prices go up until the greater portion of buyers simply cannot pay any more than they are.

Who created that captive market? You seem to think this is solely caused by the government. It's not. People's lifestyles and choices can cause this TOO. Each person's context is different so we can't assume the cause.

I certainly don't live in the same capitve market as others but I like to think I enabled myself out of some of these markets as you've defined.

To your simple example. That's why there are usually more than one gas station in the same neighborhood so comparing gas stations across the city is forcing an example that is not reality. There are alternatives to driving at the cost of convenience and time.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Let's say there are only two gas stations in a town. One on the east side and the other on the west. And until now, they have both charged the same price per gallon of gas, thinking that if they raise it, their customers will go to the other station for gas. But today, the owner of the eastern gas station decides that this is not the case. He decides that his customers are not going to bother driving all the way to the other station to get their gas if he raises his own gas price by a penny per gallon, because the cost of the drive would erase the savings gained by it. So he does raise his price by a penny. And it turns out that he's right. People don't bother driving across town to save one penny per gallon on their gas.

Now, the owner of the west side gas station sees this, and sees that he has gained no new customers by keeping his gas price a penny lower, so he decides to raise his gas price by two pennies, thinking that if it worked for the west side owner, it'll work for him. And it does! Because even though he has raised his gas price by two cents per gallon, his patrons would still have to pay one cent per gallon more if they drove across town. So all they would be saving themselves is one cent per gallon, and that savings would be eaten up by the extra mileage. So they pay the two cents more for the convenience of not driving to the other side of town for their gas.

Now let's say this little 'price war' goes on for a while, and it results in both station owners charging 10 cents more per gallon for their gas, because the only alternative for their customers is to drive to the next town to buy cheaper gas. And, of course, the drive would just use up ten cent-per-gallon savings on the extra mileage incurred, getting there and back. So they aren't happy about it, but they have to pay the high price, because they have to have gasoline for their cars.

And anyway, we all know that the station owners in the next town will raise their prices accordingly because the station owners in the first town did, and they got away with it.

The problem, here, is that people have to buy gas for their cars, and the people providing that commodity all know it. So the sellers are not going to compete with each other for the lowest price and biggest share of customers. That would only hurt their profit margin (giving more, and getting less). Their goal is not to sell more product, but to sell less product for significantly more money. Because they profit more by giving less out and taking more in. And they ALL share this same goal. So they don't have to meet in back rooms and price-fix to pursue it. They will collude simply by all pursuing the same goal. Price-fixing and price gouging are technically illegal, and so is collusion, but they are nearly impossible to prove when the participants never have to meet or even speak to each other, to do it.

A captive market is a market in which the buyers have to buy from someone, and the sellers all know it. It changes the dynamics considerably when the buyers cannot refuse to buy. As they can in a "free market". Here in the U.S. most of us think we are living in a "free market economy". But in fact everything that we NEED TO BUY to live in a modern, interdependent society is in fact being sold in a captive market. And for that reason the prices go up until the greater portion of buyers simply cannot pay any more than they are.

There's electric cars now. :eek:
Folks don't have to drive.

Lot's of opportunities to deal with a "captive" market. Perfect situation for an inventive/creative mind. However, have the government come in to keep business in line, scratch the need for creativity.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Don't forget all the regulatory b******* like that stupid 10% ethanol requirement*. Not to mention huge tax levies as well. The government is just as responsible for price issues and more often than not, holds the so called 'free market' hostage.
So, either you completely missed the point, or you're hoping to distract everyone else from the point by blaming the government. Why? What's in it for you to protect a lie about "free market economics" being told to justify the abuse of captive market economics? Are you one of these 'gas station owners'?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Not just the US, the same con trick is going on all over the world.
So why do so many of us still think that we're engaging in "free market commerce" when we're being systematically robbed based on this lie, and have been for nearly a century? Are we all really this stupid?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
So why do so many of us still think that we're engaging in "free market commerce" when we're being systematically robbed based on this lie, and have been for nearly a century? Are we all really this stupid?
Do you think there are any free markets, or is everything "captive"?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Price controls are always an option. Nothing sends capitalists into conniptions more than a proposal for price controls. Price controls mean that they earn less in profit, and that's unacceptable to them. They claim (often without a shred of evidence) that price controls would be bad for the overall economy, but they don't remember that price controls saved America's economy during WW2.
"They" being the 'gas station owners', yes. They're just trying to protect their greed. But why do so many of the rest of us agree with them when we are the ones paying the price? Nearly everything we need to live in our modern culture has to be purchased, and we are being gouged on the prices we're paying for it all because that's what happens when the buyers have to buy. So why do the rest of us allow it, and even support it, when it's making us work longer and harder for less and less?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
So why do so many of us still think that we're engaging in "free market commerce" when we're being systematically robbed based on this lie, and have been for nearly a century? Are we all really this stupid?

Probably because those driving the markets also drive the media and people, in general, are gullible and need to believe things are as they are told
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I know it's not possible to convince anti-capitalists
that there's no better economic system yet devised.
So I won't try.
The really weird thing is that this is constantly being used as justification never to try. Never to even consider an alternative. "All price caps are always bad and always end in disaster", and so on. "See, we tried it one time many years ago on one commodity and it didn't work perfectly, so we should never, ever, try it again on any commodity, ever!" "And if anyone even dares speak of the government controlling prices, again, we should consider them completely insane ..."

And so America keeps thinking, as we keep on being robbed, decade after decade after decade.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The really weird thing is that this is constantly being used as justification never to try. Never to even consider an alternative. "All price caps are always bad and always end in disaster", and so on. "See, we tried it one time many years ago on one commodity and it didn't work perfectly, so we should never, ever, try it again on any commodity, ever!" "And if anyone even dares speak of the government controlling prices, again, we should consider them completely insane ..."

And so America keeps thinking, as we keep on being robbed, decade after decade after decade.
If we're to abandon capitalism, it would be best to first have a demonstrably better alternative.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Most people just coast thru life, supersizing orders, never taking the initiative to start a business.

You're painting large segments of the population with a rather large brush there.

They don't even understand the system they're part of. Their employer handles their taxes &
provides health care. All they do is show up for work, go thru the motions, & then head home
to eat Domino's pizza while watching Wheel Of Fortune. But they know they want more.
And evil corporations aren't giving it to them. Socialists will spread that ill gotten lucre!

What's to understand? It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a PhD in economics to be able to understand the system we're all part of (the same one that you said is great for "everyone"). People are already aware, at least on some level, that they're getting the shaft.

If you don't believe me, then try walking up to random people on the street and try to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge. If what you're saying is true (about people not understanding the system), then they would happily and willingly buy anything you have to sell them. If they show signs of wariness or suspicion, then it's a safe bet that they certainly where they are and what system they're living under.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You're painting large segments of the population with a rather large brush there.
In rare cases, it's appropriate.
Consider the ratio of business owners to employees.
What's to understand? It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a PhD in economics to be able to understand the system we're all part of (the same one that you said is great for "everyone"). People are already aware, at least on some level, that they're getting the shaft.

If you don't believe me, then try walking up to random people on the street and try to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge. If what you're saying is true (about people not understanding the system), then they would happily and willingly buy anything you have to sell them. If they show signs of wariness or suspicion, then it's a safe bet that they certainly where they are and what system they're living under.
If I posed as a Nigerian prince, I just might sell some bridges.
But this is different from understanding an entire economic system.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Who created that captive market? You seem to think this is solely caused by the government. It's not. People's lifestyles and choices can cause this TOO. Each person's context is different so we can't assume the cause.
I didn't say anything about government. Not a thing. I simply pointed out that when buyers have to buy from someone, and all the sellers know it, the sellers no longer compete to provide the lowest price and the highest quality, as they do in a free market. Instead, they collude to raise prices and lower quality until the buyer goes broke or the product becomes useless.
I certainly don't live in the same capitve market as others but I like to think I enabled myself out of some of these markets as you've defined.
I don't know what that means. If you have to buy product "X", then you have to pay what the sellers wants for it. And they ALL want as high a price as you can afford to pay. If you have lots of money; more than most other people, then I guess you don't care because the price-gouging isn't hurting you like it is everyone else. But when it finally destabilizes the culture and economy to the point of collapse, I guess you're care, then.
To your simple example. That's why there are usually more than one gas station in the same neighborhood so comparing gas stations across the city is forcing an example that is not reality. There are alternatives to driving at the cost of convenience and time.
It doesn't matter how many of them there are when THEY ALL WANT THE SAME RESULT. The only thing currently setting the price of gasoline is the point at which people will actually curtail their driving (and therefor buy less fuel) because of the high cost.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
You're painting large segments of the population with a rather large brush there.



What's to understand? It doesn't take a rocket scientist or a PhD in economics to be able to understand the system we're all part of (the same one that you said is great for "everyone"). People are already aware, at least on some level, that they're getting the shaft.

If you don't believe me, then try walking up to random people on the street and try to sell them the Brooklyn Bridge. If what you're saying is true (about people not understanding the system), then they would happily and willingly buy anything you have to sell them. If they show signs of wariness or suspicion, then it's a safe bet that they certainly where they are and what system they're living under.


Sooo...you saying these idiots will be smarter under Socialism?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sooo...you saying these idiots will be smarter under Socialism?
If we examine the behavior of people who live under socialism, we discover that they....
- Are prone to mass starvation.
- Enjoy rigid regulation of every aspect of their lives.
- Want only their elite party class to have limos, mansions, & dachas.

If that's what they want, then that's fine for them.
But I'd rather not adopt their system.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Let's say there are only two gas stations in a town. One on the east side and the other on the west. And until now, they have both charged the same price per gallon of gas, thinking that if they raise it, their customers will go to the other station for gas. But today, the owner of the eastern gas station decides that this is not the case. He decides that his customers are not going to bother driving all the way to the other station to get their gas if he raises his own gas price by a penny per gallon, because the cost of the drive would erase the savings gained by it. So he does raise his price by a penny. And it turns out that he's right. People don't bother driving across town to save one penny per gallon on their gas.

Now, the owner of the west side gas station sees this, and sees that he has gained no new customers by keeping his gas price a penny lower, so he decides to raise his gas price by two pennies, thinking that if it worked for the west side owner, it'll work for him. And it does! Because even though he has raised his gas price by two cents per gallon, his patrons would still have to pay one cent per gallon more if they drove across town. So all they would be saving themselves is one cent per gallon, and that savings would be eaten up by the extra mileage. So they pay the two cents more for the convenience of not driving to the other side of town for their gas.

Now let's say this little 'price war' goes on for a while, and it results in both station owners charging 10 cents more per gallon for their gas, because the only alternative for their customers is to drive to the next town to buy cheaper gas. And, of course, the drive would just use up ten cent-per-gallon savings on the extra mileage incurred, getting there and back. So they aren't happy about it, but they have to pay the high price, because they have to have gasoline for their cars.

And anyway, we all know that the station owners in the next town will raise their prices accordingly because the station owners in the first town did, and they got away with it.

The problem, here, is that people have to buy gas for their cars, and the people providing that commodity all know it. So the sellers are not going to compete with each other for the lowest price and biggest share of customers. That would only hurt their profit margin (giving more, and getting less). Their goal is not to sell more product, but to sell less product for significantly more money. Because they profit more by giving less out and taking more in. And they ALL share this same goal. So they don't have to meet in back rooms and price-fix to pursue it. They will collude simply by all pursuing the same goal. Price-fixing and price gouging are technically illegal, and so is collusion, but they are nearly impossible to prove when the participants never have to meet or even speak to each other, to do it.

A captive market is a market in which the buyers have to buy from someone, and the sellers all know it. It changes the dynamics considerably when the buyers cannot refuse to buy. As they can in a "free market". Here in the U.S. most of us think we are living in a "free market economy". But in fact everything that we NEED TO BUY to live in a modern, interdependent society is in fact being sold in a captive market. And for that reason the prices go up until the greater portion of buyers simply cannot pay any more than they are.
I think you have raised some interesting points with your simplified model. I am not sure that such a simplified model covers anything in the real world. There are other factors in competition besides the existence of a product. The quality of the product and any associated products and services must also be considered. The underlying assumptions of your model are that the product is equal from both sources and the different sources are equal with the exception of location. It also assumes that the market will not be moved to change by small increases in the cost of the goods with all other factors being equal.

I am a capitalist. I do not deny that. I cannot see how a single authority can distribute wealth as efficiently. Is capitalism a system outside of abuse? No. Because of abuse or potential for abuse, should an existing system be tossed out in favor of another? Are socialist or socialistic alternatives free of abusive manipulation?

I have some issues with capitalism too. The idea that the harder you work the more you get is true to an extent, but it is also mythological to an extent as well. Often in practice, the higher you get, the less you have to do and the more you exist off of the efforts of those below you.

I am still learning and have much to learn. I leave open the possibility of changing my mind, based on the evidence. I just do not jump readily on a bandwagon based on claims to an answer, when that answer hinges more on a personal viewpoint then on real world evidence.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
This is a key point!!!! Thanks @Revoltingest !!

There are many other economic systems, and I suspect (I don't know, I suspect), that somewhere in between the US's current system (what should we call it "rigged capitalism"?) and socialism, there is a system that doesn't fall prey to the extremes of either side.
I agree. We do not follow a rigged capitalism in the US and it is more a hybrid with some socialist programs.

My issues are less about tossing out one system for another and more to better managing the system we have.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Most people just coast thru life, supersizing orders, never taking the initiative to start a business.
They don't even understand the system they're part of. Their employer handles their taxes &
provides health care. All they do is show up for work, go thru the motions, & then head home
to eat Domino's pizza while watching Wheel Of Fortune. But they know they want more.
And evil corporations aren't giving it to them. Socialists will spread that ill gotten lucre!
Hey! I do not watch Wheel of Fortune.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
"They" being the 'gas station owners', yes. They're just trying to protect their greed. But why do so many of the rest of us agree with them when we are the ones paying the price? Nearly everything we need to live in our modern culture has to be purchased, and we are being gouged on the prices we're paying for it all because that's what happens when the buyers have to buy. So why do the rest of us allow it, and even support it, when it's making us work longer and harder for less and less?

Because so many people hold on to the "American Dream" (with an emphasis on the word "dream") in that if they keep working and persevering, they too will someday live on Easy Street. People are captivated by folkloric tales of movie stars being discovered working the soda fountain at Schwab's - or Famous Amos making cookies and turning it into a fortune. It's a common trope in Americana and the overall mythos of capitalism in general, the typical rags to riches story.

And the stories are true, for the most part. There are some who really do manage to strike it rich or somehow have the right mix of "mojo" to make their dreams into reality. That's what you hear in every "get rich quick" scheme or multi-level marketing seminar. They often run parallel to the typical sports hero stories or anecdotes about celebrities starting from humble beginnings and making it big in Hollywood.

The reality is, some people actually do make it big, while others don't fare quite so well - for whatever reason. Maybe they weren't born with enough talent. Maybe they didn't work hard enough. Maybe they had other life-altering problems that got in the way. I don't think that anyone has come up with some all-encompassing formula for success that would work for anyone. Likewise, no one has been able to come up with any generalized explanation for failure that could be applied in every situation.

But people often don't really look beyond the surface, and as a result, they're inclined to accept surface level explanations for how things turn out they way they do. Those of us who were born and raised in the United States have been a lifetime dose of endless propaganda and an overall national philosophy of greatness in American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, the American Dream, or whatever it is they're calling it these days.

And at the center of that is our devotion to "freedom" and "liberty" - the idea that we can all make our own choices and enjoy all the fruits and benefits of our free market economy. We look around and see a modern, technologically-advanced, comfortable, luxurious society where most people seem reasonably well-fed, provided for. We also know that most of the rest of the world (outside of the insular bubble known as "The West") isn't doing all that well. Most people ostensibly attribute this disparity and marked difference in standards of living to our political/economic system, which values "freedom" (such as it is), as opposed to other systems which are not free.

I think where most capitalist ideologues make their mistake is in implying/assuming that an economic system like capitalism automatically means "freedom," when such is obviously not the case. Likewise, they do the same by assuming that socialism automatically means "not free," when such is not the case. Sometimes, capitalism can be free, sometimes not. It's the same for socialism. The level of "freedom" doesn't always correlate with economic policies or "systems" for doing things. A lot of people seem to miss that.

A "system" is just a way of doing things, whether it's the metric system or a traffic system. The US and UK have different traffic systems, but we both somehow manage to get to where we're going. One could argue that "our system is better," since we drive on the right side of the road, while the British drive on the wrong side of the road. One could even cite statistics about traffic accidents and say "Look at all those accidents those Brits are having!" And no one could even counter it by saying that "Americans have accidents, too" because that would be "Whataboutism."

But that aside, I somehow doubt that the current system will continue to enjoy the same level of ideological support that it has in recent decades. A lot of younger people seem less and less enamored with capitalism than my generation was. Most of my generation are/were a bunch of consumerist, materialist sell-outs. We bought it all and still couldn't get enough. We wanted our instant gratification, and now we're hooked on it.

But we're at the point where the system probably won't be able to sustain endless consumption on endless credit for much longer. It's already taken its toll on America to a noticeable degree. Our once booming industry has degenerated into a Rust Belt, which can actually be found nationwide, not just in the Rust Belt states. The roads are falling apart, boarded up buildings, abandoned warehouses, factories - all signs of an economy that once was - but will never be again. We are in decline, as other countries are surpassing us.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that capitalism is all bad. In fact, I don't think capitalism - or any other abstract ideology - is necessarily "good" or "bad" in theory. It just depends on how it's used and the general political culture of wherever it's practiced.

I think the problem we're facing at present is more due to a prominent component within our political culture in which capitalism and free-market economics are treated as some kind of Sacred Cow, while its adherents are zealously devoted to it with a kind of religious fervor. I've seen it over and over. I wouldn't even attribute it all to conservatives or Republicans either. There are plenty of liberals and Democrats who also worship the basic principles of capitalism as if it's a Sacred Cow. Some are "reformed" capitalists while others might be "orthodox" capitalists.

In fairness, socialists aren't much different, as there are/were plenty of religiously zealous socialists as well, to varying degrees. I've never denied that. But at least in comparison to how socialists were 50-100 years ago, they've mellowed out considerably. They're not what they once were.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Because so many people hold on to the "American Dream" (with an emphasis on the word "dream") in that if they keep working and persevering, they too will someday live on Easy Street. People are captivated by folkloric tales of movie stars being discovered working the soda fountain at Schwab's - or Famous Amos making cookies and turning it into a fortune. It's a common trope in Americana and the overall mythos of capitalism in general, the typical rags to riches story.

And the stories are true, for the most part. There are some who really do manage to strike it rich or somehow have the right mix of "mojo" to make their dreams into reality. That's what you hear in every "get rich quick" scheme or multi-level marketing seminar. They often run parallel to the typical sports hero stories or anecdotes about celebrities starting from humble beginnings and making it big in Hollywood.

The reality is, some people actually do make it big, while others don't fare quite so well - for whatever reason. Maybe they weren't born with enough talent. Maybe they didn't work hard enough. Maybe they had other life-altering problems that got in the way. I don't think that anyone has come up with some all-encompassing formula for success that would work for anyone. Likewise, no one has been able to come up with any generalized explanation for failure that could be applied in every situation.

But people often don't really look beyond the surface, and as a result, they're inclined to accept surface level explanations for how things turn out they way they do. Those of us who were born and raised in the United States have been a lifetime dose of endless propaganda and an overall national philosophy of greatness in American Exceptionalism, Manifest Destiny, the American Dream, or whatever it is they're calling it these days.

And at the center of that is our devotion to "freedom" and "liberty" - the idea that we can all make our own choices and enjoy all the fruits and benefits of our free market economy. We look around and see a modern, technologically-advanced, comfortable, luxurious society where most people seem reasonably well-fed, provided for. We also know that most of the rest of the world (outside of the insular bubble known as "The West") isn't doing all that well. Most people ostensibly attribute this disparity and marked difference in standards of living to our political/economic system, which values "freedom" (such as it is), as opposed to other systems which are not free.

I think where most capitalist ideologues make their mistake is in implying/assuming that an economic system like capitalism automatically means "freedom," when such is obviously not the case. Likewise, they do the same by assuming that socialism automatically means "not free," when such is not the case. Sometimes, capitalism can be free, sometimes not. It's the same for socialism. The level of "freedom" doesn't always correlate with economic policies or "systems" for doing things. A lot of people seem to miss that.

A "system" is just a way of doing things, whether it's the metric system or a traffic system. The US and UK have different traffic systems, but we both somehow manage to get to where we're going. One could argue that "our system is better," since we drive on the right side of the road, while the British drive on the wrong side of the road. One could even cite statistics about traffic accidents and say "Look at all those accidents those Brits are having!" And no one could even counter it by saying that "Americans have accidents, too" because that would be "Whataboutism."

But that aside, I somehow doubt that the current system will continue to enjoy the same level of ideological support that it has in recent decades. A lot of younger people seem less and less enamored with capitalism than my generation was. Most of my generation are/were a bunch of consumerist, materialist sell-outs. We bought it all and still couldn't get enough. We wanted our instant gratification, and now we're hooked on it.

But we're at the point where the system probably won't be able to sustain endless consumption on endless credit for much longer. It's already taken its toll on America to a noticeable degree. Our once booming industry has degenerated into a Rust Belt, which can actually be found nationwide, not just in the Rust Belt states. The roads are falling apart, boarded up buildings, abandoned warehouses, factories - all signs of an economy that once was - but will never be again. We are in decline, as other countries are surpassing us.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that capitalism is all bad. In fact, I don't think capitalism - or any other abstract ideology - is necessarily "good" or "bad" in theory. It just depends on how it's used and the general political culture of wherever it's practiced.

I think the problem we're facing at present is more due to a prominent component within our political culture in which capitalism and free-market economics are treated as some kind of Sacred Cow, while its adherents are zealously devoted to it with a kind of religious fervor. I've seen it over and over. I wouldn't even attribute it all to conservatives or Republicans either. There are plenty of liberals and Democrats who also worship the basic principles of capitalism as if it's a Sacred Cow. Some are "reformed" capitalists while others might be "orthodox" capitalists.

In fairness, socialists aren't much different, as there are/were plenty of religiously zealous socialists as well, to varying degrees. I've never denied that. But at least in comparison to how socialists were 50-100 years ago, they've mellowed out considerably. They're not what they once were.
I think you are highlighting an important aspect of modern US economic and social life. Aspects of capitalism have been absorbed and rebranded by religion in much the same way that some aspects of our political system have been.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I didn't say anything about government. Not a thing. I simply pointed out that when buyers have to buy from someone, and all the sellers know it, the sellers no longer compete to provide the lowest price and the highest quality, as they do in a free market. Instead, they collude to raise prices and lower quality until the buyer goes broke or the product becomes useless.
I don't know what that means. If you have to buy product "X", then you have to pay what the sellers wants for it. And they ALL want as high a price as you can afford to pay. If you have lots of money; more than most other people, then I guess you don't care because the price-gouging isn't hurting you like it is everyone else. But when it finally destabilizes the culture and economy to the point of collapse, I guess you're care, then.
It doesn't matter how many of them there are when THEY ALL WANT THE SAME RESULT. The only thing currently setting the price of gasoline is the point at which people will actually curtail their driving (and therefor buy less fuel) because of the high cost.

And, it's illegal in the US to collude on prices. Sure it happens, but if the sellers and companies get caught, they will get fined. So, doesn't that make your point mute?

Also, my point about captive markets possibly being personal is that it doesn't all affect the same way. We do not all have the same dependencies. And some dependencies are due to our own choices not because of external factors. So replace government, with external factors which now includes sellers.
 
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