Why ************ it?

[sojourner]

You're right that it doesn't work for me, but I wouldn't say that this is because I'm a non-Trinitarian Christian. Most Trinitarian Christians I know believe that Jesus Christ died to atone for our sins. I don't really see much of a link or lack of one between substitutionary atonement and the Trinity.

It provides a link in that, by the very act of becoming one of us, God reconciled us to God's Self. That only works well if Jesus is fully God, since reconciliation is God's act, not ours.

 

[ChristineES]

You don't want to know. The curse filter knows best... :bow:

I tend to agree. Some things we are better off not knowing.

 

[idav]

It provides a link in that, by the very act of becoming one of us, God reconciled us to God's Self. That only works well if Jesus is fully God, since reconciliation is God's act, not ours.

The only thing needed was for humans to be forgiven. Your requirement limits god saying he couldn't experience humanity without actually becoming one of us. If Jesus is The Son of god and we were forgiven on the cross by jesus then we can be forgiven for anything. "Forgive them for they know not what they do" (son talking to father).

 

[sojourner]

The only thing needed was for humans to be forgiven. Your requirement limits god saying he couldn't experience humanity without actually becoming one of us. If Jesus is The Son of god and we were forgiven on the cross by jesus then we can be forgiven for anything. "Forgive them for they know not what they do" (son talking to father).

That's not what I'm saying. At all. What I'm saying is that we are unable to cross the line between humanity and Divinity on our own, so God crossed that line for us. If you look at Genesis, Adam and Eve were prevented from crossing the boundary and becoming "like God." The people on the plain of Shinar were prevented from building a tower to heaven to "make a (divine) name for themselves." The whole story of god and humanity involves this uncrossable boundary. Then, with the new covenant, God finally crosses that boundary for us, becoming one of us.

 

[idav]

That's not what I'm saying. At all. What I'm saying is that we are unable to cross the line between humanity and Divinity on our own, so God crossed that line for us. If you look at Genesis, Adam and Eve were prevented from crossing the boundary and becoming "like God." The people on the plain of Shinar were prevented from building a tower to heaven to "make a (divine) name for themselves." The whole story of god and humanity involves this uncrossable boundary. Then, with the new covenant, God finally crosses that boundary for us, becoming one of us.

The only thing missing, according the garden story, for us to become as gods is to get our immortality back. This is done through the resurrection and accessing the tree of life once again, not by god becoming part human. Why would god limit himself like that? It is us that needs the upgrade, god doesn't need a downgrade.

 

[Willamena]

The only thing missing, according the garden story, for us to become as gods is to get our immortality back. This is done through the resurrection and accessing the tree of life once again, not by god becoming part human. Why would god limit himself like that? It is us that needs the upgrade, god doesn't need a downgrade.

It wasn't a "downgrade" for God to become Jesus, because he never stops becoming. We are God, become.

But I'm not Christian.

 

[sojourner]

The only thing missing, according the garden story, for us to become as gods is to get our immortality back. This is done through the resurrection and accessing the tree of life once again, not by god becoming part human. Why would god limit himself like that? It is us that needs the upgrade, god doesn't need a downgrade.

That's why it's a parabolic act. In the end, God With Us is parable -- counter-intuitive. Jesus-dying-on-the-cross-for-our-sins is mythic -- larger-than-life. Jesus taught in parables -- not myths. It stands to reason, then, that since we seem to be disposed to turn away from God (as in the garden), that a parable -- not a myth -- will turn us around (as in repentance), which is what Jesus preached: "Turn your lives around, because God's kingdom has come (past tense) near."

We cannot become "as God." But God can become human. God didn't become "part-human." Read Philippians 2. God gave up Divinity to take on human form.
God limited God's Self like that, so that we could be reconciled, since we could not expand ourselves like that. We do need the "upgrade," and, in fact, have received that "upgrade" through being reconciled to God.

 

[ChristineES]

Some can see Jesus as a downgrade, but I see it more as, like in Shakespeare, when a King dressed as a subject to get to know his kingdom as an equal.

 

[sojourner]

It wasn't a "downgrade" for God to become Jesus, because he never stops becoming. We are God, become.

But I'm not Christian.

You should be with an answer like that...

 

[sojourner]

Some can see Jesus as a downgrade, but I see it more as, like in Shakespeare, when a King dressed as a subject to get to know his kingdom as an equal.

Indeed! Sort of follows Isaiah: Every valley shall be lifted up and every hill made low. the rough places will be smoothed out, and the crooked made straight. That sentiment is also echoed in the Magnificat: That God would cast down the proud in their conceit and lift up the lowly. It's parabolic.

 

[idav]

It wasn't a "downgrade" for God to become Jesus, because he never stops becoming. We are God, become.

But I'm not Christian.

Im under the impression that we are god like since the very beginning of the bible. God seperated from us not the other way around which made us not god like. Our journey is to regain that connection but in order to get connected again God has to just give the go ahead. Just a matter of god willing it.

 

[idav]

That's why it's a parabolic act. In the end, God With Us is parable -- counter-intuitive. Jesus-dying-on-the-cross-for-our-sins is mythic -- larger-than-life. Jesus taught in parables -- not myths. It stands to reason, then, that since we seem to be disposed to turn away from God (as in the garden), that a parable -- not a myth -- will turn us around (as in repentance), which is what Jesus preached: "Turn your lives around, because God's kingdom has come (past tense) near."

We cannot become "as God." But God can become human. God didn't become "part-human." Read Philippians 2. God gave up Divinity to take on human form.
God limited God's Self like that, so that we could be reconciled, since we could not expand ourselves like that. We do need the "upgrade," and, in fact, have received that "upgrade" through being reconciled to God.

How can you say "we cannot become as god" when the very first story of the bible says we did just that which is why our immortality was taken away and we were cursed?

Jesus was the son of god of course that would make him godlike without actually needing to be his own father. We only needed to be forgiven cause apparently we are unable to follow the law as attempted many times by gods chosen people.

 

[Willamena]

Im under the impression that we are god like since the very beginning of the bible. God seperated from us not the other way around which made us not god like. Our journey is to regain that connection but in order to get connected again God has to just give the go ahead. Just a matter of god willing it.

Consciousness separated us from God: our penchant for running around the garden naming things (constantly bringing new things into the world with just a name, just a thought); our ability to order, organize and shape the world; our ability to judge.

It makes a "return to God" is as simple as dying.

 

[sojourner]

How can you say "we cannot become as god" when the very first story of the bible says we did just that which is why our immortality was taken away and we were cursed?

Jesus was the son of god of course that would make him godlike without actually needing to be his own father. We only needed to be forgiven cause apparently we are unable to follow the law as attempted many times by gods chosen people.

Precisely! It didn't work! We were thwarted and only drove ourselves further from Divinity by that attempt.

That's why there's a "new" covenant. It takes the Law out of the equation by having God completely fulfill its terms for us. "godlike" is not how the Bible describes it. Once again, read Phil. 2.

 

[idav]

Precisely! It didn't work! We were thwarted and only drove ourselves further from Divinity by that attempt.

That's why there's a "new" covenant. It takes the Law out of the equation by having God completely fulfill its terms for us. "godlike" is not how the Bible describes it. Once again, read Phil. 2.

It did work which is why we were purposely thwarted.

With Phil god exalted jesus just as he had adam and jacob and the entire line leading to jesus. This exaltation does not require god to be human, it only requires god to say it is so.

 

[sojourner]

It did work which is why we were purposely thwarted.

With Phil god exalted jesus just as he had adam and jacob and the entire line leading to jesus. This exaltation does not require god to be human, it only requires god to say it is so.

Oh, it did? I suppose that's why our prisons are full and people are starving and abused. Because we know good and evil. If it had worked, we would have no need being saved. We'd just choose good all the time.

However, we know that's not the case. We became privy to the choices available, yes. But we choose wrong all the time. That doesn't make us "Godlike." It makes us human.

As to the Philippians reference. you're conveniently forgetting the first part of the hymn: Jesus, finding himself in the form of God, did not take advantage of his divinity, but humbled himself to the point of becoming human.

 

[sojourner]

Im under the impression that we are god like since the very beginning of the bible. God seperated from us not the other way around which made us not god like. Our journey is to regain that connection but in order to get connected again God has to just give the go ahead. Just a matter of god willing it.

This doesn't make any theological sense.

 

[idav]

Oh, it did? I suppose that's why our prisons are full and people are starving and abused. Because we know good and evil. If it had worked, we would have no need being saved. We'd just choose good all the time.

However, we know that's not the case. We became privy to the choices available, yes. But we choose wrong all the time. That doesn't make us "Godlike." It makes us human.

As to the Philippians reference. you're conveniently forgetting the first part of the hymn: Jesus, finding himself in the form of God, did not take advantage of his divinity, but humbled himself to the point of becoming human.

We make the wrong choices yes it just means we would make evil gods. The type that get thrown out of heaven. Who says gods have to be good. What makes a god is the power they have. It worked because genesis says it did. Genesis which I keep pointing to. "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Jesus being the form of god, the image of god, means just that, a reflection of. A reflection isn't the real thing but a mimicry of sorts.

 

[idav]

This doesn't make any theological sense.

Going by god having the power it does make sense. Everyone in the bible in OT that god forgave were always huge sinners. What made them forgiven was his say so and that is all that's needed. God is under no obligation to forgive anyone and can accept whatever type of person he wants as seen in the OT. Jesus just made it a hell of lot easier to be forgiven which the OT said would happen to the gentiles via someone from the line of Jacob. I'm under the impression that the god of the bible can do whatever he wants and it doesn't have to be done a certain way just cause your theology says so.

 

[sojourner]

We make the wrong choices yes it just means we would make evil gods. The type that get thrown out of heaven. Who says gods have to be good. What makes a god is the power they have. It worked because genesis says it did. Genesis which I keep pointing to. "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Jesus being the form of god, the image of god, means just that, a reflection of. A reflection isn't the real thing but a mimicry of sorts.

But that's not what the Genesis story says, is it! It says that they would become like God -- and God is not evil.

Again, the hymn doesn't say "reflection," does it! It says "form."