Why Islam, Christianity and modern Judaism are all apostate religious institutions.

[rosends]

I never said that. I said the institutions of religion are a hindrance to people's personal spiritual growth. Because all religious leaders attempt to put themselves between God and the individual. Claiming some type of exclusive mantle of authority. Lazy people who don't want to toil with God love these institutions. Righteous people who take ownership of their own beliefs may belong to one of these institutions but they know that something is sincerely wrong with it deep down. I never claimed that there aren't honest and sincere people in all of those religions though.

I don't claim that all Jews who don't adhere to my interpretation of Torah are wrong!! Thats precisely my point! I claim that all people must seek righteousness PERSONALLY and not depend on a group of elites to guide them.

so lets say that a devout man meditates and concentrates and studies and comes up with an understanding of the text. he then writes it down. Should I reject what he says because I didn't do the meditation but someone else did? Why do you assume that those who wrote their books and who determined practice haven't been through that same process?

 

[rosends]

Don't be silly. The Torah commands were given in the desert with the intention of them taking them into the land of Israel to fully practice them. It only took so long because of stubbornness.

With the intention? So now you are reading into God's mind? There are many laws which are introduced with the phrase "when you enter the land" but a whole lot which have no such introduction. in fact, the Sabbath laws are introduced in one place in relation to the giving of the mon -- clearly designed for the desert. So what in the Sabbath laws indicates that it is based on anything agrarian?

 

[Simplelogic]

so lets say that a devout man meditates and concentrates and studies and comes up with an understanding of the text. he then writes it down. Should I reject what he says because I didn't do the meditation but someone else did? Why do you assume that those who wrote their books and who determined practice haven't been through that same process?

Actually, I truly appreciate much of the Rabbinic writings and the viewpoints. I don't believe that any group of people have the write to dictate interpretation to others right now. I believe we should listen to all peoples perspectives and make our own personal decisions for how we obey God.

 

[rosends]

Are you aware that Abraham was already following many of the Torah commands including:

-Marriage laws
-Kosher laws
-Sabbath
-Civil commands (relating to murder etc)
-Circumcision

This was all BEFORE the Torah was written at Mt. Sinai.

really? Where in the text does it say he was following these and that they were laws? Where does it mention kosher laws? Where the sabbath? I'd love to see the verses. What marriage laws do you see in the text that he was following?

 

[Simplelogic]

With the intention? So now you are reading into God's mind? There are many laws which are introduced with the phrase "when you enter the land" but a whole lot which have no such introduction. in fact, the Sabbath laws are introduced in one place in relation to the giving of the mon -- clearly designed for the desert. So what in the Sabbath laws indicates that it is based on anything agrarian?

1“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, 2so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Deut 6: 1-2

Nope…just reading the Torah.

 

[Simplelogic]

really? Where in the text does it say he was following these and that they were laws? Where does it mention kosher laws? Where the sabbath? I'd love to see the verses. What marriage laws do you see in the text that he was following?

Sabbath was given in the garden.
Circumcision was practiced before Sinai.
Noah understood Kosher laws
Abraham was married

 

[rosends]

1“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the judgments which the LORD your God has commanded me to teach you, that you might do them in the land where you are going over to possess it, 2so that you and your son and your grandson might fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. Deut 6: 1-2

Nope…just reading the Torah.

Then you know that a bunch of the commandments had already been given and observed, as opposed to laws that were contingent on being in the land. So the sabbath, which had been in force for a while, was not dependent on being in the land (unless you can show me otherwise). The verses you cite establish a condition -- enter the land and keep all the laws (verse 3) "so that it will be good for you". This doesn't say that following them required being in the land, only that obeying them would make life in the land better. You are adding meaning again.

 

[rosends]

Sabbath was given in the garden.
Circumcision was practiced before Sinai.
Noah understood Kosher laws
Abraham was married

1. Where was there any law regarding the sabbath given in the garden. The text simply says God rested on the 7th day. It never says any commandment for man to do the same.
2. Circumcision was commanded before Sinai, true. That's why I didn't ask about that.
3. Noah understood what kosher laws? Show me the text.
4. The text says "and Abram and Nachor took for themselves women..." Shoe me the laws of marriage that Abraham followed, and show me where they are divine laws.

 

[Godobeyer]

Are you aware that Abraham was already following many of the Torah commands including:

-Marriage laws
-Kosher laws
-Sabbath
-Civil commands (relating to murder etc)
-Circumcision

This was all BEFORE the Torah was written at Mt. Sinai.

so it's Abraham (Pbuh) was first ?
correct me if i am wrong , I guess Sabbath law establish in Moses (pbuh) time, so after Abraham (pbuh) !

in which Torah verses tells :
Abraham (pbuh) followes Sabbath laws ?

 

[Simplelogic]

I never said that Sabbath didn't have application outside of the land.

 

[Simplelogic]

so it's Abraham (Pbuh) was first ?
correct me if i am wrong , I guess Sabbath law establish in Moses (pbuh) time, so after Abraham (pbuh) !

in which Torah verses tells :
Abraham (pbuh) followes Sabbath laws ?

Sabbath was establish in the garden of Eden with Adam.

 

[Akivah]

The question should first be asked. How would an ancient Israelite, who lived in an agrarian society, define work? Then you can work backwards from there. Obviously we aren't an agrarian society now. So how do the principals of agricultural work apply to the modern age? There is a very simple way to apply these principals to the modern day but part of the problem is due to the fact that WE ARE NOT AN AGRARIAN CULTURE like God purposed for us! One of the curses of living in diaspora. Its not supposed to be easy to apply the Torah to diaspora, thats the whole point! We are all to seek and meditate on God's commandments and not assume some elite group has all the right answers for us. Faith takes WORK AND DILIGENCE. We will all be unified in PERFECT obedience when messiah and the levites come and are restored. God favors a man who is sincerely seeking true Sabbath observance. EVEN IF HE ISN'T DOING IT PERFECTLY. But the man who thinks he is in right standing with God because he regurgitates Rabbinic law is fooling himself.

You see? Paying attention to the underlined phrases above, you yourself have to work and apply the written law and come up with your own meaning that is relevant to you. You are also deviating from the exact words of Torah to make a meaning that is applicable to your facts and circumstances. Well, our rabbis and sages have done the exact same thing as you for thousands of years. They sought and meditated. They worked backwards to find similar points of law. They applied the basic principles to the modern day. You just don't like their conclusions, so you want to erase thousands of years of research, seeking, and meditation. However, your methodology of making the written word relevant to your life, is the same process that any thinking person would do, including our sages.

As an aside, it isn't in G-d's laws that we have to be perfect. That is a xian invention that has no support in Torah.

Also, I'm a Levite. I don't need any restoring. I'm right here.

 

[metis]

I never said that Sabbath didn't have application outside of the land.

There's no indication that Shabbat was actually given either to Adam/Eve or Abraham.

 

[Simplelogic]

1. Where was there any law regarding the sabbath given in the garden. The text simply says God rested on the 7th day. It never says any commandment for man to do the same.
2. Circumcision was commanded before Sinai, true. That's why I didn't ask about that.
3. Noah understood what kosher laws? Show me the text.
4. The text says "and Abram and Nachor took for themselves women..." Shoe me the laws of marriage that Abraham followed, and show me where they are divine laws.

1. It is logical to assume that Adam would copy God's expressed will in the garden. Its not like God told Adam this for no reason.
3. 20And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar. Gen 8:20
4. The fact that Abraham was in covenant with another women proves he understood the law of marriage. As did other cultures.

 

[Godobeyer]

Sabbath was establish in the garden of Eden with Adam.

Did God in Torah commend Adam,Abraham,Noah (pbuh) to don't work in Sabbath ?

 

[metis]

Did God in Torah commend Adam,Abraham,Noah (pbuh) to don't work in Sabbath ?

No indication of that found in Genesis.

 

[Simplelogic]

You see? Paying attention to the underlined phrases above, you yourself have to work and apply the written law and come up with your own meaning that is relevant to you. You are also deviating from the exact words of Torah to make a meaning that is applicable to your facts and circumstances. Well, our rabbis and sages have done the exact same thing as you for thousands of years. They sought and meditated. They worked backwards to find similar points of law. They applied the basic principles to the modern day. You just don't like their conclusions, so you want to erase thousands of years of research, seeking, and meditation. However, your methodology of making the written word relevant to your life, is the same process that any thinking person would do, including our sages.

As an aside, it isn't in G-d's laws that we have to be perfect. That is a xian invention that has no support in Torah.

Also, I'm a Levite. I don't need any restoring. I'm right here.

Except I am not the one telling everyone they need to follow my interpretation exclusively. YOU AND YOUR RABBIS ARE!!

 

[Simplelogic]

Did God in Torah commend Adam,Abraham,Noah (pbuh) to don't work in Sabbath ?

I said God establish Sabbath.

 

[rosends]

I never said that Sabbath didn't have application outside of the land.

You said in post 60 that the laws were given with the "intention of them taking them into the land of Israel to fully practice them" even though the text never says that. You also said that the laws of the sabbath were based on an agrarian system, even though the text never says that. The text clearly gives the laws of the sabbath outside of the land and never says that anything related to the sabbath each week depends on being in the land. So your definition of work as predicated on an agrarian system is pure invention.

 

[Godobeyer]

I said God establish Sabbath.

I know
since when establish as commendement ?