Why is this board so obsessed with restrooms?

[Shadow Wolf]

I might have gotten this wrong, but I believe I asked the women on this thread, and I was told that I was not listening to their personal opinions and anecdotal evidence. I don't ignore this, but I take it for what it is, anecdotal.

You told one who told you she disagrees with you that you two actually agree with each other. You've also pushed other female voices aside so you can keep repeating the fantasy that men are just going to start using womem facilities.

Not at all, sorry for any confusion. I'm actually listening to the women in my life and to many prominent women feminists whose opinions I'm agreeing with.

It doesn't look like it when what we see is you ignoring female what female members say amd trying to speak for them.

 

[icehorse]

It doesn't look like it when what we see is you ignoring female what female members say amd trying to speak for them.

As I've said before, my arguments are based on statistics much more than on personal anecdotes.

Therefore, I am NOT trying to speak for anyone on this forum. I am arguing broader, statistical realities.

So, I hear your anecdotes, I'm listening. But I do not think they represent the thinking of most women.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As I've said before, my arguments are based on statistics much more than on personal anecdotes.

Therefore, I am NOT trying to speak for anyone on this forum. I am arguing broader, statistical realities.

So, I hear your anecdotes, I'm listening. But I do not think they represent the thinking of most women.

Listening isn't telling someone who just said "we disagree" "oh, no, we actually agree." That's not listening, thats doublethink.

 

[icehorse]

Listening isn't telling someone who just said "we disagree" "oh, no, we actually agree." That's not listening, thats doublethink.

you'd have to rewind that exchange for me - i'm betting there is some specific context that you're overlooking?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

you'd have to rewind that exchange for me - i'm betting there is some specific context that you're overlooking?

Nope.

I hope you know by now that this is ENTIRELY consistent with my ideas on this topic?

And by this point people have been challenging your ideas for several pages as they have seen your efforts to mask your transphobia (like your "TRA" and focusing on "activists" like they're a problem), as well as your statements to try to downplay your speaking over and for women. Yes, you've no doubt heard from some women who are anti-trans. But you've also not acknowledged that women are more likely than men to support trans rights, including transwomen using women's facilities.
Amd if there's one thing you can count on in this country it is that bigots will endlessly parrot the perceived need to protect women. But as been explored and evidence provided, this ends up hurting women and enforcing stereotypes and ideals of feminity and what the female body looks like.

 

[icehorse]

We seem to have shifted gears here, but okay...

Earlier today on RF I posted a quote from Christopher Hitchens that I think bears repeating:

"Don't take refuge in the false security of consensus."

And by this point people have been challenging your ideas for several pages

Yes, I would agree that you have a small cohort of posters who have been challenging my ideas. A few days ago I backed out of conversing with this cohort if they're arguing from the perspective of their "lived experiences". If that's where you're coming from, just be honest about it - it's a popular approach these days.

they have seen your efforts to mask your transphobia (like your "TRA" and focusing on "activists" like they're a problem)

Out in the big, wide world there really are prominent feminists who are worried about single sex spaces being open to those who identify as female but are anatomically male. Are all these feminists also "transphobes"?

And as an aside, did someone vote you judge and arbiter here on RF? Because you certainly act like that when you shift from debating ideas to slinging slurs like "transphobe" around.

Amd if there's one thing you can count on in this country it is that bigots will endlessly parrot the perceived need to protect women.

I'm going to reiterate a perspective to consider: Whether you think so or not, you and I are mostly allies. We are both fighting against the alt-right and misogynists and bigots. We have similar liberal values.

In that context, when we fight the alt-right and such, we must not underestimate them. If an extremist on the left promotes extraordinary, consequential, and damaging claims, OF COURSE our smart opponents will jump on those ideas and turn them around. We must police ourselves! So the reality is that - yes - sometimes I'll make an argument that you've heard someone on the right make. But that's not because I'm on the right. It's because on it's own merit, it's simply a bad idea.

Sp pulllllease - stop branding me as a transphobe or a misogynist or a bigot - you could NOT be more off base.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, I would agree that you have a small cohort of posters who have been challenging my ideas. A few days ago I backed out of conversing with this cohort if they're arguing from the perspective of their "lived experiences". If that's where you're coming from, just be honest about it - it's a popular approach these days.

I'm letting others do the talking. You're a man talking of transwomen creating problems for women's restrooms, but women, cis women at that, have been rejecting your alarms anf a fears. I'm just pointing that out.

Out in the big, wide world there really are prominent feminists who are worried about single sex spaces being open to those who identify as female but are anatomically male. Are all these feminists also "transphobes"?

And as an aside, did someone vote you judge and arbiter here on RF? Because you certainly act like that when you shift from debating ideas to slinging slurs like "transphobe" around.

We showed you and linked to sources saying most feminist support trans rights. Of course not all do, but most do.
And, no, transphobe is not a slur. No more than negrophobe or homophobe are.
And I would call them transphobes, scared about things bigots fear, things that never come about. They are bigots like the racists who were (and still are) concerned about races mixing, just like homophobes scared of gay men in the men's lockerroom.

Sp pulllllease - stop branding me as a transphobe or a misogynist or a bigot - you could NOT be more off base.

Then why do you sound those transphobe alarms that hurt more cis-women than anyone?

 

[anna.]

I'm letting others do the talking. You're a man talking of transwomen creating problems for women's restrooms, but women, cis women at that, have been rejecting your alarms anf a fears. I'm just pointing that out.

Yeah. Not surprising he'd talk down lived experiences, because he can't live them himself. Or that he'd use that as an excuse to "back out" of the thread he's dived back into.

 

[icehorse]

I'm letting others do the talking. You're a man talking of transwomen creating problems for women's restrooms, but women, cis women at that, have been rejecting your alarms anf a fears. I'm just pointing that out.

Yes, i've already acknowledged that your small cohort is in agreement. Again, if you're arguing your own lived experience, just say so.

We showed you and linked to sources saying most feminist support trans rights. Of course not all do, but most do.

And I have told you - many times! - that many people like me support trans people, but disagree with some of the ideas that trans activists have. trans is not the same as trans activist !!!!

And, no, transphobe is not a slur. No more than negrophobe or homophobe are.

Well they are all slurs.

They are bigots like the racists who were (and still are) concerned about races mixing, just like homophobes scared of gay men in the men's lockerroom.

You are making poor comparisons here. Sometimes know as false equivalences.

Then why do you sound those transphobe alarms that hurt more cis-women than anyone?

Well THAT's a BIG CLAIM !! Got any evidence for that? You've got a big hill to climb to connect those dots!!

 

[icehorse]

Yeah. Not surprising he'd talk down lived experiences, because he can't live them himself. Or that he'd use that as an excuse to "back out" of the thread he's dived back into.

I'll ask you the same question: are you making these arguments based on your lived experience? So far @Shadow Wolf has dodged the question, will you answer me or also dodge the question?

 

[anna.]

I'll ask you the same question: are you making these arguments based on your lived experience? So far @Shadow Wolf has dodged the question, will you answer me or also dodge the question?

Why ask me? I'm just a member of a "small cohort." But - I am a woman. And you are not. So there's that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, i've already acknowledged that your small cohort is in agreement. Again, if you're arguing your own lived experience, just say so.

It's more than you've supplied. A man saying women must be protected, and cis women saying they are ok withtrans women in the women's restroom.

And I have told you - many times! - that many people like me support trans people, but disagree with some of the ideas that trans activists have. trans is not the same as trans activist !!!!

You never did say what this activist is. You did, however, jump the gun very early in this thread assuming people are apologizing for this undefined group.

Well they are all slurs.

No, they arent.
Slur:
To talk about disparagingly or insultingly.

You are making poor comparisons here. Sometimes know as false equivalences.

No, they are valid comparisons. You trying t9 say they are false equivalence doesn't make it so.

Well THAT's a BIG CLAIM !! Got any evidence for that? You've got a big hill to climb to connect those dots!!

You've been parroting RW bigoted points this entire thread. I even saw on the TV Hannity is doing a show discussing these same points you are, especially how it allegedly endangers women. But it doesn't. The alarmist garbage does.

 

[icehorse]

Why ask me? I'm just a member of a "small cohort." But - I am a woman. And you are not. So there's that.

another dodge? why is that?

 

[icehorse]

It's more than you've supplied. A man saying women must be protected, and cis women saying they are ok withtrans women in the women's restroom.

still dodging the question about whether you're speaking from your lived experience. why is that?

You never did say what this activist is. You did, however, jump the gun very early in this thread assuming people are apologizing for this undefined group.

Trans activists make big claims about what trans people are and how society should treat them. I'm sure some trans people agree with what the activists are doing, but I also know some trans people wish the activists would just stop. If you support the trans activist agenda, then I'm not jumping the gun.

No, they arent.
Slur:
To talk about disparagingly or insultingly.

Wait, what? You don't think calling someone an X-phobe is disparaging or insulting? wow!

You've been parroting RW bigoted points this entire thread. I even saw on the TV Hannity is doing a show discussing these same points you are, especially how it allegedly endangers women

I explained this, care to respond? Because at this point you're the one more guilty of parroting.

But it doesn't. The alarmist garbage does.

Yes, you just said this. I'll ask again, care to connect those dots?

 

[anna.]

another dodge? why is that?

I was pretty clear. Why are you asking me when you've already dismissed my "small cohort?"

You seem to be the guardian of the rules we're all supposed to follow before accepting our input (even though you'd already 'rested your case').

 

[icehorse]

I was pretty clear. Why are you asking me when you've already dismissed my "small cohort?"

You seem to be the guardian of the rules we're all supposed to follow before accepting our input (even though you'd already 'rested your case').

Nah, more like general rules for constructive discussion and debate. And I was asking you because I wanted to be sure that I understood you, nothing nefarious

 

[anna.]

Nah, more like general rules for constructive discussion and debate. And I was asking you because I wanted to be sure that I understood you, nothing nefarious

You've already made your mind up and rested your case and determined that you were right all along, that you are the guardian of constructive discussion and that my small cohort is insignificant in relation to the dozens of women you've talked to about restrooms. You can carry on here, forging your way through the great tide and I'll continue to use the women's room without a worry that a transgender woman might be using it too.

 

[icehorse]

You've already made your mind up and rested your case and determined that you were right all along, that you are the guardian of constructive discussion and that my small cohort is insignificant in relation to the dozens of women you've talked to about restrooms. You can carry on here, forging your way through the great tide and I'll continue to use the women's room without a worry that a transgender woman might be using it too.

I was sincerely attempting to understand your perspectives better.

But it seems clear to me that that's not going to be possible. I thank you for your time and energy, I have learned a few things over the course of our exchanges.

 

[metis]

Can you give an example or two of anti-trans rhetoric that's relevant to women's safe spaces?

What I was referring to is that when we have some here who hype up such rhetoric, it can incite others to "take action" as we've seen so many times before. Words have consequences, and so does discrimination.

Someone's sexuality is none of my business, and this includes trans. If someone does something onerous to another, then that's when action may be necessary. Stereotyping situations isn't called for.

 

[icehorse]

What I was referring to is that when we have some here who hype up such rhetoric, it can incite others to "take action" as we've seen so many times before. Words have consequences, and so does discrimination.

Too many indirect references in the above for me to understand who and what you're talking about?

Someone's sexuality is none of my business, and this includes trans. If someone does something onerous to another, then that's when action may be necessary. Stereotyping situations isn't called for.

Totally agreed! My issue is that trans activists are promoting and pursuing things that are onerous to others.