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Why is being gay considered wrong?

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Cynic said:
This is incorrect, gay men respond to the hormones of other men rather then the hormones of women, the experiment was done by taking samples of arm pit sweat from both men and women. This means that it is much more of a biological response rather than a choice.
hmmmm

if homosexuality is proven to be biological that iradicates most the arguments against it

but then people would look into 'designer babies' to prevent homosexuality - and such tests and experiments are stupid anyway - in my opinion they prove nothing

so what else could 'cause' it? being abused by a family member? nope, definatley not - i wasnt abused - so i can cancel that out

so it must be a choice right? wrong

all you who are hetrosexual, tell my why it is that you fancy people of the opposite sex to you? did you make a choice to fancy the opposite sex over the same sex? or did it just 'happen'?
 

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
This is incorrect, gay men respond to the hormones of other men rather then the hormones of women, the experiment was done by taking samples of arm pit sweat from both men and women. This means that it is much more of a biological response rather than a choice.
Although I agree with the findings I have to say this was only a single experiment done, with a relatively small sample of people. The results were strongly in favour of this statemtent but more test would have to be done to make it conclusive, assuming of course we are talking about the same tests.
 

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
I just want to add my thoughts here.
Sabio said:
Anatomy - It is clear from the anatomy of a man and woman that they go together (sexually), two men do not.
I do believe that homosexuals have found it rather easy to 'get together' sexually.

Biology - A man and a woman are meant to be paired and reproduce, two men are not.
I can't say I agree with we were 'ment to reproduce' but more like only a man and woman can actually reproduce...but I don't think not being able to reproduce can be considered a bad aspect of homosexuality considering how many straight women can't have children either.

Choice - People "choose" to engage in homosexual sex even though it is not anatomically or biologically supported.
Not only is that completely speculative, more and more the evidence is proving otherwise.

I'm sorry but I still see no reason to look down upon any aspect of homosexual whatevers other than 'god doesn't like it'
 

Faminedynasty

Active Member
Fluffy said:
Agreed but I would be very wary about saying that it is impossible to show an argument that homosexuality is wrong even if the level of arguments so far have been inept. I have seen superb arguments against homosexual sex for example, none that have convinced me but certainly good attempts.
I've never heard an argument that is marginally logical demonstrating or even suggesting the immorality of homosexuality. But you're right, I shouldn't say it's impossible. It is often possible to make good arguments even for stances which are obviously wrong.
 
God created Man and created women from him to be his partner. This is the God's will nature. Have you ever seen a gay cat or gay dog ( creatures of no brain), this is nature.
Can a gay have a child from another gay
Religion tries to fight bat instict direction. Being a gay, out of the question is a out of God's will.
think again, and dispise being a Gay, There is still time in your live to go to the right direction. God can forgive anything except not believe in him.

think again
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
Creatures of no brain? How lowly you think of animals... Cats and dogs have saved the lives of their owners before, given comfort to the sick, the list goes on... There are gay animals that are known to be more intelligent. Bonobos, dolphins, chimps... humans.

I'm not concerned with whether or not gays can have kids. There are more than enough kids starving in other countries for me to be rabid about bringing my own into the world and passing on my crappy genes.

I find that being homosexual isn't all that different from the surgery I had on my back. It's painful, it sucks sometimes because of how people treat me, sometimes I feel like pitching a fit and asking what I did to deserve it, but it's just how I am. After I have my emo fit I can get back up and deal with it, and even enjoy it. I might not be ecstatic about being lesbian every second of my life, but I certainly don't despise it.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
ahmedhelmy said:
God created Man and created women from him to be his partner. This is the God's will nature. Have you ever seen a gay cat or gay dog ( creatures of no brain), this is nature.
Can a gay have a child from another gay
Religion tries to fight bat instict direction. Being a gay, out of the question is a out of God's will.
think again, and dispise being a Gay, There is still time in your live to go to the right direction. God can forgive anything except not believe in him.

think again
ahmedhelmy;
Have you ever seen a gay cat or gay dog ( creatures of no brain), this is nature.

I think you are confused, my friend; cats and dogs have a brain - and a lot of animals do behave as homosexuals; Perhaps, instead of worrying about every one else's sinns, you might like to look in your own heart, and follow these two verses from the Bible.



Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

(Here Jesus warns against condemning the actions or motives of others. Only the Lord has the right to condemn since only He has full knowledge of a person's actions and motives (John 5:22; Romans 14:4,10). On the other hand, He has commanded us to "judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). We should be able to recognize false teachers and "from such turn away" (2 Timothy 3:5; see also Matthew 7:15-20). Also, we should discern and rebuke these false brethren who are encouraging others to sin (Ephesians 5:7,11). In other words, we should be able to judge that which is wrong, in either doctrine or practice, and avoid (or correct) those who are involved, but we must not condemn them--God will do that);)
 

Cynic

Well-Known Member
ahmedhelmy said:
Have you ever seen a gay cat or gay dog...
Yes, I have actually. Lemme just say I had a toy pomeranian that developed a sort of unusual bond with my other, bigger dog (which was a puppy at the time). Even though I tried to stop it, the pomeranian just wouldn't learn.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Sabio said:
One last time...

Anatomy - It is clear from the anatomy of a man and woman that they go together (sexually), two men do not.
Well...they seem to have found a way to "go together" pretty successfully. In fact, their methods of "going together" highly resemble those of heterosexuals. Hhmmm...

Biology - A man and a woman are meant to be paired and reproduce, two men are not.
What about barren women and men with low sperm counts? When these people have sex, it is often biologically impossible for them to reproduce, yet no one is condemning them.

Choice - People "choose" to engage in homosexual sex even though it is not anatomically or biologically supported.
Now that we've all learned how the abovementioned anatomical and biological claims are incorrect, let us next recognize that homosexual sex is as much of a deliberate choice as is heterosexual sex.

These things are as plain as the nose on your face Ryan, you just "choose" to beleive otherwise.
Yeah, Ryan! Quit choosing to believe its right, and choose to believe its wrong instead!
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
ahmedhelmy said:
God created Man and created women from him to be his partner. This is the God's will nature. Have you ever seen a gay cat or gay dog ( creatures of no brain), this is nature.
Can a gay have a child from another gay
Religion tries to fight bat instict direction. Being a gay, out of the question is a out of God's will.
think again, and dispise being a Gay, There is still time in your live to go to the right direction. God can forgive anything except not believe in him.

think again
ah yes, as subtle as a rock - congratulations

two 'gays' can have a child in many ways - adoption, seregate mothers, test-tube babies with a donation from a woman (not an option for me personally but an option for others)

god has forgiven me - of the burden of guilt i used to carry with being homosexual, i was so guilty that i even attempted to take my own life - god has relieved me of this burden through the power of prayer and faith - would he have stopped me from feeling so guilty about it if it was wrong? no, i dont believe he would have

ok so that will not stand up in a court of law, but it doesn't need to, because i believe it - god does not condemn homosexuality in itself

if gay people sleep with different peopel every week with no regard to others, then they should be condemned - agreed



believe it or not, my friends dog is constantly turned on by other male dogs, and is never turned on by female dogs - trust me, we tried :rolleyes:

i havent seen a gay cat no, but i personally havent seen a lion, that doesnt mean they dont exist

i prey that god allows you to open your mind to the love that can be shared by all of humankind, amen

but two loving men or two loving women who are commited to eachother is not wrong in the eyes of God
 

Sabio

Active Member
Ceridwen018 said:
Well...they seem to have found a way to "go together" pretty successfully. In fact, their methods of "going together" highly resemble those of heterosexuals. Hhmmm...


What about barren women and men with low sperm counts? When these people have sex, it is often biologically impossible for them to reproduce, yet no one is condemning them.


Now that we've all learned how the abovementioned anatomical and biological claims are incorrect, let us next recognize that homosexual sex is as much of a deliberate choice as is heterosexual sex.


Yeah, Ryan! Quit choosing to believe its right, and choose to believe its wrong instead!
It seems that you and Ryan are quite similar in beliefs, hmmm..... a conspiricy? :)

For those of you who are Atheists or other believers in Evolution (Ryan and Ceridwen?)

If you believe that we are evolved from lower and less complex life forms, then the whole point of your existence (and your lower life form ancestors) is to reproduce and continue to evolve the species. Thus homosexuals disrupt the normal cycle of life/evolution. So then Atheists and Evolutionists should not agree or accept homosexuality because it is not consistent with your scientific beliefs!

You can't have it both ways, because that makes your belief system hypocritical.

Sabio
 

Mike182

Flaming Queer
Sabio said:
It seems that you and Ryan are quite similar in beliefs, hmmm..... a conspiricy? :)

For those of you who are Atheists or other believers in Evolution (Ryan and Ceridwen?)

If you believe that we are evolved from lower and less complex life forms, then the whole point of your existence (and your lower life form ancestors) is to reproduce and continue to evolve the species. Thus homosexuals disrupt the normal cycle of life/evolution. So then Atheists and Evolutionists should not agree or accept homosexuality because it is not consistent with your scientific beliefs!

You can't have it both ways, because that makes your belief system hypocritical.

Sabio
WAIT, HOLD THAT THOUGHT

BISEXUALITY

REPRODUCTION

......................................

i think what i mean is, bisexuals can reproduce, yet still have homosexual sex - ergo it cannot be wrong according to this theory
 

Sabio

Active Member
Why Homosexuality is Wrong - A Natural Argument

The rational argument you are looking for is the argument from nature - though rarely do people agree on what is "natural" and what is not.

Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.

And nature?

The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.

The processes and functions of the body.

So we see nature as something that adheres to order - there are "laws" of nature. We see that it involves biological processes. We see that for something to be natural, it is seen to follow a certain course. This means that any natural act would be something that is not only biologically proper to the acting being but also follows a course from beginning to end.

Trees grow toward light because they need it to accomplish photosynthesis, not because they choose to. They are acting toward the natural end of generating food. Animals are more adaptive, and have learned behaviors, and though they act according to nature, they also follow impulses with a degree of volition that plants do not have. Human beings, on the other hand, have complete volition. Though they act in accordance with the laws of nature that govern them, they have control over their impulses. We can subject our impulses and control our nature according to our intellect and will. As nature goes, we are at the pinnacle, yet we do not have the ability to circumvent it.

Many try to view the homosexual question in overly simplistic terms. They see certain homosexual behaviors in the animal kingdom, and so try to justify analagous human behavior as "natural". This is a foolish course for two reasons.

First, because what is "natural" for animals is not always "natural" for humans, and second, because animals act on ungoverned impulses that do not always follow a natural course. Monkeys throw feces. Dogs eat their own vomit. Some animals cannibalize their young. Does this mean that we should imitate this behavior?

In the question of nature, what is truly "natural" is an action that is ordered to the accomplishment of an end that is biologically necessary. This is an important distinction. "Natural" acts always serve biological self-preservation in some direct or indirect sense.

The most common natural act is eating. We eat to nourish our bodies so that they can grow and we can continue to live. We are prompted to eat by a sensation, an urge, that tells us "you need food". As humans, we can ignore that urge (unlike animals), though if we ignore it long enough, we will die.

Sex is another appetite that is naturally geared toward self-preservation. The reproductive urge is biologically explainable only as a means by which a species is maintained through offspring. The elements of attraction, courting rituals, sexual pleasure, etc., are all tangental to the purpose of the sexual act. They are means by reproduction is accomplished, not the end in itself. Animals aren't capable of knowing this. They follow an impulse, and don't logically conclude that sex will lead to babies. They want to satisfy a release of hormones in an act that gives them pleasure. This means that when an animal exhibits homosexual, or inter-species sexual behavior, they are following a conditioned behavioral response that generates pleasure. That does not mean that the sexual impulse in animals isn't there to facilitate reproduction. That's what the impulse is for.

Human beings, on the other hand, do know this. We are scientifically aware that the male and female sex organs are physically compatible. We know that normal attraction - I can use the term "normal" because it is an established fact that over 90% of the population is heterosexual - when manifested in (vaginal) sexual intercourse between a man and a woman leads, naturally speaking, to conception and childbearing. The parameters for normal sexual acts - according to nature - exist within the order that underlies reproduction. Regardless of how one might feel, this is the unquestionable biological reason for sex.

As humans, however, we can sublimate sex. We can't change it's natural end - though many try - but we can make sex something more than an animalistic pursuit of pleasure. It can be about love and respect and generosity and openness to life. We can consciously choose those things. Too often, we don't.

This is why there are pedophiles in the world. This is why people have sex with animals. This is why men rape women. Though the pleasure that is associated with sex is a legitimate good, when sex is reduced to primarily the pursuit of that pleasure, the "natural" result is a kind of slavery to desire. When pleasure is made to be the purpose of sex, rather than a natural means to promote procreation, pleasure becomes an end to be reached by whatever means necessary. This changes the context of what sex is, and opens it to other, disturbing possibilities. The fact is, we know that the acts I mentioned above are unnatural, no matter how "natural" the urges and desires feel to those who act them out. Yet the same is true for homosexuality.

Homosexuality serves no natural purpose, so to call it a "natural" orientation is a false use of the language. It is not procreative, and does nothing to promote the generation of children. It is sexual activity that is concerned only with pleasure, and therefore disordered - as it is not ordered to the natural sexual purpose of procreation.

I previously mentioned that the natural end of eating is nourishment. What about those poor souls that suffer from Bulemia? They eat enormous amounts of food, so that they may experience the pleasure of eating, only to purge all of it from their bodies, rendering nourishment impossible. They suffer from a disorder. Why do we call it a disorder? Because eating is ordered to nourishment. They have changed the end of eating from nourishment to pleasure, and have thus perverted the act of eating into something entirely other than what it is intended for. Should they have the right to damage their bodies that way? Could anyone reasonably argue that what they are doing is natural?

I have no more idea why the homosexual person is attracted to someone of the same sex than I understand why the Bulemic throws up all of their food. In each case, there are different reasons, some genetically predisposed, some environmentally formed, but no reason makes a perverse desire natural. Alcoholism is a genetic disorder that generates an inordinant desire for alcohol consumption. But just because it's genetic does that mean it's natural? Is alcoholism an "acceptable lifestyle", even if the alcoholic hurts no one but himself?

The State has a legitimate interest in regulating unnatural acts. If it did not, it could not make laws against self-inflicted injuries or violent acts. Those suffering from mental illnesses could not be compelled to undergo treatment. Unnatural acts pose a danger to the order of society, because they violate the order and law of nature, which is the foundation for judicial law and societal structure. Further, the State has an interest in preserving the institution of marriage and traditional families. Families are the building blocks of society. They are the centers for the reproduction and education of children, who will some day become full participants in society. For society not to protect and promote marriage and family would be destructive to the society as a whole.

Homosexual couples do not have a "right" to marriage. They do not have a "right" to marriage benefits. If two gay men can have marrital benefits, why shouldn't two guys who are friends from college and have decided to room together as they enter the professional world get them as well? What is the differentiating factor between them and the gay couple? Because one couple has sex and the other doesn't? Why should that gain a person any kind of special status?

That's the fundamental problem with the gay marriage issue. It's not about sex - it's about family. Gay couples, however, can't see that, because they have a flawed understanding of sexuality. Sex for them is about pleasure. It's not about responsibility and generosity in the way that marrital sex is. Heterosexual Marrital sex that is open to children is a deeper, more open, more selfless love. Any sexual activity that is intentionally sterile is always less than that.

There are other things about homosexual sex, on a natural level, that are inferior to heterosexual sex. The very fact that homosexual sex revolves entirely around at least one partner engaged in a primarily non-genital act deprives those couples from the mutual genital sexual communication that heterosexual couples alone can participate in. Homosexual sex isn't sex at all - it's mutual masturbation. No matter how much one plays with the language, it can never be more than that. It is infertile. It, quite frankly, uses orifices that are not intended (by their nature) for sexual contact - which is why anal sex is unnatural even for hetero couples. Homosexual sex, insofar as it is a pursuit of only the pleasure of sex without the fecundity of sex, is selfish, just like solitary masturbation is.

No matter how many times a homosexual person says they love their partner - which they probably do - the sexual expression of that love is not love, but perversion. If homosexual sex is ok, then any other sexual desire or activity must be OK too.

http://www.e-skojec.com/archives/000153.html
 

Jaymes

The cake is a lie
As far as I'm concerned, as long as both parties are consenting any sexual activity is okay.
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
Sabio said:
If you believe that we are evolved from lower and less complex life forms, then the whole point of your existence (and your lower life form ancestors) is to reproduce and continue to evolve the species. Thus homosexuals disrupt the normal cycle of life/evolution. So then Atheists and Evolutionists should not agree or accept homosexuality because it is not consistent with your scientific beliefs!

You can't have it both ways, because that makes your belief system hypocritical.
Sigh... This is as low as me quoting the bible verse instructing you to kill homosexuals and then asking why you don't.

So Sabio, apparently you are an expert on our beliefs. You know, like the belief that everyone is created the same exact ways with the same exact wants and desires. Oh wait, we don't have that belief. In evolution, whole races and species are generalized into one category, and it is said that the species wants to reproduce. Humans in general want to reproduce and have children and continue with the human race. As long as the species keeps going, the cycle is not disrupted.
 

Sabio

Active Member
Ryan2065 said:
Sigh... This is as low as me quoting the bible verse instructing you to kill homosexuals and then asking why you don't.

So Sabio, apparently you are an expert on our beliefs. You know, like the belief that everyone is created the same exact ways with the same exact wants and desires. Oh wait, we don't have that belief. In evolution, whole races and species are generalized into one category, and it is said that the species wants to reproduce. Humans in general want to reproduce and have children and continue with the human race. As long as the species keeps going, the cycle is not disrupted.
Ryan,

Actually I am quite interested in the "theory" of evolution, maybe we can discuss it sometime...

Sabio
 

Sabio

Active Member
Ryan2065 said:
Sigh... This is as low as me quoting the bible verse instructing you to kill homosexuals and then asking why you don't.

So Sabio, apparently you are an expert on our beliefs. You know, like the belief that everyone is created the same exact ways with the same exact wants and desires. Oh wait, we don't have that belief. In evolution, whole races and species are generalized into one category, and it is said that the species wants to reproduce. Humans in general want to reproduce and have children and continue with the human race. As long as the species keeps going, the cycle is not disrupted.
Ryan,

My apologies if you were offended. Did you get mad because I challenged your belief in homosexuality or your belief in evolution?

Sabio
 

Faminedynasty

Active Member
Sabio said:
If homosexual sex is ok, then any other sexual desire or activity must be OK too.
First of all, that entire article is, for lack of a better phrase, crap. It has so little to do with morality that it is virtually irrelevant to the argument at hand. And in regards to that last sentence there, what is that based on? That is an absurd conclusion that is seemingly not based on any logical premise, nor is it substantiated by anything in the article, or anything in the world. But to clarify, yes, just about any other sexual activity between consenting adults is ok. When people aren't hurting anyone, whatever they want to do with eachother is their own business, and is in no way immoral. And that last sentence is a pathetic failure of an attempt to group homosexuality with acts such as rape or pedophilia, which are logically, provably morally wrong. Quite frankly, you are grasping at straws in a failed attempt to justify your illogical prejudice.
 
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