Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

[firedragon]

The word by word translation (see .pdf attached) has an error in it, you think?
It says explicitly: genitive masculine plural noun

You are catching one word. The word Nabiyyin is plural of course.

But the sentence is singular.

I have already explained in a language that you may understand. You seem to have missed that.

"His name is Hawkeye, and he is the last of the mohicans."

One man, he is the last of the mohicans. When you say "He", its singular. You are addressing one person. Completely different connotation to how you have constructed your analogy. Hope you understand.

 

[stvdv]

Its hatham. (H with phlegm). You know when you water a plant, think of burying the seed and covering it and putting water and now you are done with it. In arabic when you are "Done with it", you say Hithamun. Same word. Hatham.

When you have written something, you finalise it, you are done with it, so now you put a wax seal to show that "Its done". Thats hatham.
When something is finished, done, and sealed or stamped you say "Mahthoom". Same word. Hatham.
Thus, if you wish to translate the word into one english word, seal is the most appropriate word but when you read in english you can make all kinds mistakes like you would easily see in this thread. Peace.

Thank you for the elaboration. Good to know.
I also thought that "Seal of Prophets" seems to be a good translation.
Still "Seal" does not mean forever of course.

It is like we have "God stalemate"

Feels really bad

God is always free to move
And be happy, He knows best

 

[stvdv]

You are following another Scripture meaning it's better than the Quran or the Quran is not complete.

Not necessarily. I don't see 1 Scripture of God better than the other. Whatever is given by God is perfect.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you for the elaboration. Good to know.
I also thought that "Seal of Prophets" seems to be a good translation.
Still "Seal" does not mean forever of course.

It is like we have "God stalemate"

Feels really bad

God is always free to move
And be happy, He knows best

No brother. It doesnt mean "God Stalemate" as if its a limit on God. How could "Last prophet" mean "End of Gods ability"? Its not a sensible assessment logically or theologically.

If you say that by making a last Nabi God is not free to move, it is you who is limiting God. No. God is Kulli Shayin Kadheer. He is master of all Shayin. All things. So he is free to do anything and none of that would mean his power or his ability is limited suddenly.

You are limiting god by making the thesis that "End of Nabi means God is stalemate". God is more capable of ending the scripture, and making his final revelation, and preserve that final revelation forever as the furqan or criterion. You should understand the theology of the Quran better brother.

 

[Link]

I'm not going to debate other meanings of it, but, the one offered by Baha'allah, that it means all Prophets are one another, is ridiculous.

 

[stvdv]

I have already explained in a language that you may understand. You seem to have missed that.

"His name is Hawkeye, and he is the last of the mohicans."

When I wrote "Last of Mohicans.....", I already had in mind 'the Last (survivor) of all the mohicans"
Hence I thought you meant something else.

 

[stvdv]

No brother. It doesnt mean "God Stalemate" as if its a limit on God. How could "Last prophet" mean "End of Gods ability"? Its not a sensible assessment logically or theologically.

If you say that by making a last Nabi God is not free to move, it is you who is limiting God. No. God is Kulli Shayin Kadheer. He is master of all Shayin. All things. So he is free to do anything and none of that would mean his power or his ability is limited suddenly.

You are limiting god by making the thesis that "End of Nabi means God is stalemate". God is more capable of ending the scripture, and making his final revelation, and preserve that final revelation forever as the furqan or criterion. You should understand the theology of the Quran better brother.

You misread completely what I meant
I said "if you say Muhammad is the final prophet" it is you that limit God (hence the stalemate on sending new Prophets)

How could "Last prophet" mean "End of Gods ability"?

Exactly. That is what I said. You can never say "Muhammad is the final Prophet"
That is up to God

 

[stvdv]

I'm not going to debate other meanings of it, but, the one offered by Baha'allah, that it means all Prophets are one another, is ridiculous.

It is (not) ridiculous IMHO.

 

[Pastek]

Not necessarily. I don't see 1 Scripture of God better than the other. Whatever is given by God is perfect.

At the condition it's really from God.

 

[firedragon]

I said "if you say Muhammad is the final prophet" it is you that limit God (hence the stalemate on sending new Prophets)

I say that it is you who is limiting God by saying that by making a last prophet he is limited

 

[firedragon]

Exactly. That is what I said. You can never say "Muhammad is the final Prophet"
That is up to God

If God decided that way, its his business.

 

[Link]

If Quran was not protected, it would be wrong to end Prophethood. But if Quran is protected, and God sends a succession of Messengers, and will send a Messenger to revive the revelation of Mohammad at the end times (the Mahdi will return), then is not cutting of God's hand.

In fact, there is wisdom, for the interpretation to win. In the past, the interpretation of the holy books was first to fall even during Prophets who would succeed the founding Prophet, people followed misinterpretations and eventually changed God's words. People despite clear proofs, mixed clergy leadership with that of God's chosen.

The holy books, The Torah, Gospels, most of it is about manifesting the position of God's guide on earth. There is still a guide that one day God will manifest through miracles in a way never the proof is never manifested to that degree "say: wait, we too are waiting".

Despite that, people equate leadership of non-chosen with chosen. So God decided to write Quran in a way, that guarantees it's protection. So he gave ways to misinterpret his words despite enough clarity, that he wishes to rebel against his chosen Messengers after the Seal of Prophets (the Successors of Mohammad starting from Ali), may rebel against them. Ghadeer even the words were calculated there to say in a way that allows for people to pretend to not know what it means, despite, the Wilayah there is in context of the Two Heavy precious objects, Quran and his family, and the Wilayah of Mohammad is in this flow, and it's clear it means whatever Wilayah Mohammad has over you, so does Ali.

The fact Quran was guaranteed protection meant it can't be as explicit, because if was manifestly explicit in Wilayah of Ali, then, either God would have intervene in this world in ways he doesn't like to protect the Quran or let it be distorted. He decided then to make it clear enough, but, only if you want to remember, you want to understand, you want to recite per God's interpretation.

In all that, he allowed Satanic forces to split Quran to parts, but then through Ahlulbayt (as) insights, unites the parts and they begin to hold and interpret each other and manifest the wonderous words of God.

The battle for interpretation is not over. This is God's plan.

So I don't see with return of the Mahdi, that God's hand is cut off. One can say, Bahaism with no present guide on earth and over 1000 years of not allowing God to send a Prophet, has put a temporary cut off his hand.

Anyone can play this game. Yes, it's a huge trial that God is talking to us through revelation after Mohammad and there is no current communication nor any communication from God to humans after Mohammad, but this is because Quran is comprehensive, and is meant for all times.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm not going to debate other meanings of it, but, the one offered by Baha'allah, that it means all Prophets are one another, is ridiculous.

Te reason you find it ridiculous is because you have not studied Islam well. This is one of the fundamental teaching of Religion.
See for example this tradition from Imam Sadiq, recorded in Biharulanwar:


"And our master, Imam Qaim (a.s.) would be standing, resting his back to
the Kaaba. And he will say: O people, whoever wants to see Adam and
Sheeth, should know that I am Adam and Sheeth. And whoever wants to see
Nuh and his son, Saam, should know that I am that same Nuh and Saam. And
whoever wants to see Ibrahim and Ismail, should know that I am that same
Ibrahim and Ismail. And whoever wants to see Musa and Yusha, should know
that I am that same Musa and Yusha. And whoever wants to see Isa and
Shamoun, should know that I am that same Isa and Shamoun. And whoever
wants to see Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) and Amirul Momineen, should know that I
am that same Muhammad and Amirul Momineen. And whoever wants to see
Hasan and Husain, should know that I am that same Hasan and Husain. And
whoever wants to see the Imams from the progeny of Husain, should know
that I am those same purified Imams. Accept my call and gather near me as I
would inform you about all that has been said and all that has not been said.”

This tradition tells us, All Prophets are the same, and coming of the Qaim, is just as coming All of them.

There are many traditions like this! Just do your research my friend.

 

[stvdv]

At the condition it's really from God.

Naturellement

 

[stvdv]

I say that it is you who is limiting God by saying that by making a last prophet he is limited

You twist things now.

 

[Link]

Te reason you find it ridiculous is because you have not studied Islam well. This is one of the fundamental teaching of Religion.
See for example this tradition from Imam Sadiq, recorded in Biharulanwar:


"And our master, Imam Qaim (a.s.) would be standing, resting his back to
the Kaaba. And he will say: O people, whoever wants to see Adam and
Sheeth, should know that I am Adam and Sheeth. And whoever wants to see
Nuh and his son, Saam, should know that I am that same Nuh and Saam. And
whoever wants to see Ibrahim and Ismail, should know that I am that same
Ibrahim and Ismail. And whoever wants to see Musa and Yusha, should know
that I am that same Musa and Yusha. And whoever wants to see Isa and
Shamoun, should know that I am that same Isa and Shamoun. And whoever
wants to see Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) and Amirul Momineen, should know that I
am that same Muhammad and Amirul Momineen. And whoever wants to see
Hasan and Husain, should know that I am that same Hasan and Husain. And
whoever wants to see the Imams from the progeny of Husain, should know
that I am those same purified Imams. Accept my call and gather near me as I
would inform you about all that has been said and all that has not been said.”

This tradition tells us, All Prophets are the same, and coming of the Qaim, is just as coming All of them.

There are many traditions like this! Just do your research my friend.

I've studied it well, I said, I don't have the problem with the metaphorical fact, just God saying Mohammad is the ender of all Prophets to mean that doesn't make sense to me. This is too far as far language goes, and the primary expression takes priority unless shown impossible. That is, I said in the OP, God could've said that fact in a way Muslims would understand "it's as if Mohammad is all Prophets and they are all one another.." something like that. But to make that meaning out of ender of all Prophets expression, which is what Khatamal Anbiya means, doesn't make sense to me.

 

[stvdv]

If God decided that way, its his business.

And only God knows the "real interpretation" of the Koran verses.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If Quran was not protected, it would be wrong to end Prophethood. But if Quran is protected, and God sends a succession of Messengers, and will send a Messenger to revive the revelation of Mohammad at the end times (the Mahdi will return), then is not cutting of God's hand.

In fact, there is wisdom, for the interpretation to win. In the past, the interpretation of the holy books was first to fall even during Prophets who would succeed the founding Prophet, people followed misinterpretations and eventually changed God's words. People despite clear proofs, mixed clergy leadership with that of God's chosen.

The holy books, The Torah, Gospels, most of it is about manifesting the position of God's guide on earth. There is still a guide that one day God will manifest through miracles in a way never the proof is never manifested to that degree "say: wait, we too are waiting".

Despite that, people equate leadership of non-chosen with chosen. So God decided to write Quran in a way, that guarantees it's protection. So he gave ways to misinterpret his words despite enough clarity, that he wishes to rebel against his chosen Messengers after the Seal of Prophets (the Successors of Mohammad starting from Ali), may rebel against them. Ghadeer even the words were calculated there to say in a way that allows for people to pretend to not know what it means, despite, the Wilayah there is in context of the Two Heavy precious objects, Quran and his family, and the Wilayah of Mohammad is in this flow, and it's clear it means whatever Wilayah Mohammad has over you, so does Ali.

The fact Quran was guaranteed protection meant it can't be as explicit, because if was manifestly explicit in Wilayah of Ali, then, either God would have intervene in this world in ways he doesn't like to protect the Quran or let it be distorted. He decided then to make it clear enough, but, only if you want to remember, you want to understand, you want to recite per God's interpretation.

In all that, he allowed Satanic forces to split Quran to parts, but then through Ahlulbayt (as) insights, unites the parts and they begin to hold and interpret each other and manifest the wonderous words of God.

The battle for interpretation is not over. This is God's plan.

So I don't see with return of the Mahdi, that God's hand is cut off. One can say, Bahaism with no present guide on earth and over 1000 years of not allowing God to send a Prophet, has put a temporary cut off his hand.

Anyone can play this game. Yes, it's a huge trial that God is talking to us through revelation after Mohammad and there is no current communication nor any communication from God to humans after Mohammad, but this is because Quran is comprehensive, and is meant for all times.

I am sorry, I have to point out, that you definition of Messengers is not exactly as Quran teaches. Messengers of God are those Prophets who come with new Revelation and Holy Book. But those who are only Prophets, such as Soloman, or David, or, Aaron, are the promoters of religions. Qaim is a messenger, which means He is like Muhammad, or Jesus who brings a new Book. The Messengers are also prophets, but not every prophet is a Messenger of God. You cannot find a Messenger of God in Quran, who is not a prophet, but you find many prophets, who are not Messengers, such as the Bani Israel prophets (Anbiya)

 

[stvdv]

I've studied it well, I said, I don't have the problem with the metaphorical fact

Just a simple question.

What do you mean with Prophet:
a) A man inspired by God who starts a new Religion
b) A man inspired by God who does not start a new Religion

IF seal means that there will be no new Religions, that seems like a good plan. Maybe less religious wars in the future
But if that is the case, then there can be still new Prophets. Ever considered that possibility?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I've studied it well, I said, I don't have the problem with the metaphorical fact, just God saying Mohammad is the ender of all Prophets to mean that doesn't make sense to me. This is too far as far language goes, and the primary expression takes priority unless shown impossible. That is, I said in the OP, God could've said that fact in a way Muslims would understand "it's as if Mohammad is all Prophets and they are all one another.." something like that. But to make that meaning out of ender of all Prophets expression, which is what Khatamal Anbiya means, doesn't make sense to me.

That is because most people misunderstand Bahaullahs statements in Iqan about Seal.

To tell you the truth, I used to misunderstand it. It did not make sense to me either before!

He does not say Seal means end or last. You are reading more than what He says. But, I agree, one meaning of Seal can be End. And all prophets are one, and all of them End and close the revelation of God. Then when the next one comes, He is the first, and opens again, or unseals it. Only God has the permission to seal, and unseal His revelation. When Jesus completed His revelation and left the world, no one had permission or ability to add any new teachings or divine laws to this religion, until Muhammad. Likewise, when Muhammad completed revelation of the Quran, He sealed Revelations of God. No one else could add to the Book of God, until when the Bab came, and unsealed it.