• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why I didn't believe in Bahaism when I researched it.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member

The explanation by Ba'ahallah to "seal of the Prophets" doesn't make sense to me.


The following is from Kitabal Itqan.

Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.
Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of
knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms "first" and "last" — when referring to God — glorified be His Name! — to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to
this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no other than the "first."


Some comments, God could've said in Quran something to that meaning, and Muslims would understand it metaphorically, for example, if Quran said, "it's as if Mohammad is all the Prophets" but not with stating Mohammad is the seal of Prophets to mean this.

It's too much. This means the impression is Mohammad is the last Prophet, but all it means, is the Prophets are all one another. This frankly, doesn't make sense, and you can deny any clear meaning of a verse in this respect.

Baha'allah acknowledges Du'a Nudba and this prayer contradicts the Bahai religon


"Among those writings are the following words recorded in the "Prayer of Nudbih"" That is from Baha'allah, he quotes it and quotes a lot from it in kitabal Itqan to prove his philosophy. While he went into great lengths to explain seal of Prophets, to mean all Prophets are each other, and not that Mohammad is really the seal, what he seemed to have forgotten to explain is a famous hadith.

"You have the position to me as Aaron does to Moses except that there is no Prophet after me"

This is a famous hadith in both Sunni and Shiite hadiths, but, say Baha'is wanted us to question it, they can't really, when it's in Du'a Nudba as well.

And in Du'a nudba there is other things said about the Mahdi to him, for example, if we can find a way to meet, I highly suggest people to read Du'a Nudba. It's on right here if anyone is interested: Dua nudba

The day of judgment

This was all said to be about Baha'allah, and frankly that's crazy to me.

No Ahlulbayt - 12 Imams or Imam alive now for Bahais.

The Bab didn't have an Ahlulbayt like the structure of guidance in Quran. Neither did Baha'allah. Instead you have this committee. Sorry, Ahlulbayt and chosen ones and the kings of God not supposed to replaced by some committee!
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
HI @Link
Its great you speak Arabic. I don't speak Arabic and rely on the English translations of which I include several for Quran 33:40:

Sahih International: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

Pickthall: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Shakir: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

Muhammad Sarwar: Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Mohsin Khan: Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever AllAware of everything.

Arberry: Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets; God has knowledge of everything.


The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.

As you speak Arabic then you may appreciate the use of the words Rasool and Nabi in regards the Quran generally and specifically verse 33:40. The reference to these two Arabic words appears highly relevant and their juxtaposition crucial not just to each other but to the phrase "I am not the father of mankind". One analysis considering Sura 33 as a whole could be in regards to Muhammad being sonless and how his marriage to Zaynab is perceived. However, I believe the phrase is an allusion to the Prophet Adam who was the Father of all mankind. So when Muhammad speaks of being the seal of the Prophets, He speaks of being the last of the lineage of Prophets (Nabi) from Adam to Himself. That makes sense historically because there have been no more Prophets of that lineage. However He does not claim to be the seal of the Messengers or Rasools.

So Muhammad being the seal of the Prophets clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in His work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time
God is defined as limitless. Humans feel limited, hence it can only be humans who attribute limitations to God, which I think equals blasphemy

"Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time"
Feels to me as:
"limiting God a lot"
"creating bad vibes"
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
HI @Link
Its great you speak Arabic. I don't speak Arabic and rely on the English translations of which I include several for Quran 33:40:

Sahih International: Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

Pickthall: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

Yusuf Ali: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Shakir: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

Muhammad Sarwar: Muhammad is not the father of any of your males. He is the Messenger of God and the last Prophet. God has the knowledge of all things.

Mohsin Khan: Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever AllAware of everything.

Arberry: Muhammad is not the father of any one of your men, but the Messenger of God, and the Seal of the Prophets; God has knowledge of everything.


The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. In plain English 'Seal of the Prophets' does not mean Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time. So it comes down to the Arabic and meanings of words that are not captured well with translation into another language.

As you speak Arabic then you may appreciate the use of the words Rasool and Nabi in regards the Quran generally and specifically verse 33:40. The reference to these two Arabic words appears highly relevant and their juxtaposition crucial not just to each other but to the phrase "I am not the father of mankind". One analysis considering Sura 33 as a whole could be in regards to Muhammad being sonless and how his marriage to Zaynab is perceived. However, I believe the phrase is an allusion to the Prophet Adam who was the Father of all mankind. So when Muhammad speaks of being the seal of the Prophets, He speaks of being the last of the lineage of Prophets (Nabi) from Adam to Himself. That makes sense historically because there have been no more Prophets of that lineage. However He does not claim to be the seal of the Messengers or Rasools.

So Muhammad being the seal of the Prophets clearly alludes to a lineage of Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. Baha’is call this the Adamic cycle which we believe ended with the advent of the Madhi (the Bab) during 1844. Baha'u'llah in His work the Kitab-i-Iqan alludes to with the phrase 'seal of the Prophets' and how the phrase is applicable to other Messengers/Rasool. This concept is clearly supported by Christian scripture. For example in the Book of Revelation 22:13 we have reference to Christ being the ‘Alpha and the Omega’, or the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet. In that sense Christ is also the beginning and end and the seal of the Prophets as with Muhammad.

Christ being called alpha and omega means him being the seal of the prophets? How does one get that idea from bible exegesis?

Reference to other verse Revelation 22:13 links to:

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"?
Right. Remember, it's Muhammad who said this.

For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam
Right. Remember, Muhammad regarded Himself...

in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
Right again "their Seal", meaning for Muslims
"Seal". I rather won't put words into God's mouth
(Only God knows what God meant with "Seal")
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
God is defined as limitless. Humans feel limited, hence it can only be humans who attribute limitations to God, which I think equals blasphemy

"Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time"
Feels to me as:
"limiting God a lot"
"creating bad vibes"

That is very simply and well put. To derive an interpretation of a single verse of the Quran to mean God’s Revelation to humanity is forever ended with Muhammad is to limit God.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well for me Link my choice was to accept what Baha'u'llah offered and that has taken me twice to Isreal where I see Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all existing together.

It is to amazing to consider how the One God gives us Messengers, that despite how True they are, many people will choose to reject them or not even consider to look at them at all.

The proofs are more than any other Messenger has ever shown, how can I neglect those proofs without rejecting the proofs of all Messengers?

Peace be with you, Regards Tony
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
The phrases ‘seal of the Prophets’ and ‘alpha and omega’ are not to be taken literally but have allusions and meanings that refer to Divinity and God’s Revelation to man.

I understand Alpha and Omega referring to divinity. But how did you come to the conclusion that it refers to God's revelation to man?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
That is very simply and well put.
To derive an interpretation of a single verse of the Quran to mean God’s Revelation to humanity is forever ended with Muhammad is to limit God
.
Yes. I like Scriptures to be simple. When there is need for debate on verses, I skip those verses.
And also, IF it's from God and meant to be useful for all humanity, then I expect it to be easy to understand.

Even the Bible says "Let Children come, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these" in Mark 10:14-15
14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and told them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16And He took the children in His arms, placed His hands on them, and blessed them

Even the Koran says "the Essence of the Book consists of clear verses" in Koran 3:07
Arberry: It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Coming back to your quote...The last line clearly tells us that "none knows its interpretation, save only God"

And below verse from Koran 5:48 confirms it again.
Arberry: And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.

Both verses are my favorites.
 
Last edited:

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"You have the position to me as Aaron does to Moses except that there is no Prophet after me"

This is a famous hadith in both Sunni and Shiite hadiths, but, say Baha'is wanted us to question it, they can't really, when it's in Du'a Nudba as well.

We can offer that the Trinity is a famous Hadith, but does the Bible support it? No and Muhammad corrected that.

Thus is that Hadith supported by the Quran, without interpretation? If not, is is just to say that Baha'u'llah has corrected the wrong interpretation, just as Muhammad has done with Biblical passages.

Regards Tony
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
my choice was to accept what Baha'u'llah offered and that has taken me twice to Isreal where I see Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'i all existing together.
:). That is proof there is something "right" I would say

amazing to consider how the One God gives us Messengers, that despite how True they are, many people will choose to reject them or not even consider to look at them at all.
Hence one of my favorite verses from Koran 5:58

The proofs are more than any other Messenger has ever shown, how can I neglect those proofs without rejecting the proofs of all Messengers?
Were you there, to be able to compare "ALL other Messengers", or is it "hearsay", or is it "clairvoyance", or might it be "wish fulfilling thinking":D

In Hinduism some say "Guru is God", but they refrain from comparing their Guru with other Gurus in terms of bigger and smaller
I am always amazed, why people want to compare in "size" and "beauty".
I know they do in the material world, should we do it in the "Spiritual World"?

Probably a "slip of the finger"?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Of course there is not a single English translation that says Muhammad is the final Prophet for all time

You have given some translations that say "Last of the prophets". So how would you differentiate between the English statements "Last of the prophets" and "Final prophet"?

Are you saying that "for all time" as an additional phrase must exist after saying last?

As you speak Arabic then you may appreciate the use of the words Rasool and Nabi in regards the Quran generally and specifically verse 33:40. The reference to these two Arabic words appears highly relevant and their juxtaposition crucial not just to each other but to the phrase "I am not the father of mankind". One analysis considering Sura 33 as a whole could be in regards to Muhammad being sonless and how his marriage to Zaynab is perceived. However, I believe the phrase is an allusion to the Prophet Adam who was the Father of all mankind. So when Muhammad speaks of being the seal of the Prophets, He speaks of being the last of the lineage of Prophets (Nabi) from Adam to Himself. That makes sense historically because there have been no more Prophets of that lineage. However He does not claim to be the seal of the Messengers or Rasools.

That verse doesnt say father of mankind. It says father of any one of your men. Saying mankind is too much of an inference. Way too much inference. Actually, its not even inference, its directly misquoting the book.

Its very specific. "Anyone of your men". Not "Mankind". Its ahadhin min rijaalikum, not An nas. The problem with your statements is that Quran bi Quran is an already established methodology and its plainly available for anyone, while the Quran keeps calling us Ya Ayyuhannas for all mankind.

Also, the Quran calls all humans as "Ya bani adama". Children of Adam. So you and i are both "Children of Adam". There is no lineage of Adam to Muhammed and him calling himself "Not a father anyone of men among you" making him some grandson of Adam or anything of the sort. This is way way too much stretching of what is not there.

And you see though you say "He does not claim to be the seal of the messengers or rasools", what do you call Bahaullah then? Is he a Nabi or a Rasool? Thus, in that case Bahaullah has to be a rasool (according to your logic).

Thus, what was he? Rasool but not a Nabi? Can you confirm that?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You have given some translations that say "Last of the prophets". So how would you differentiate between the English statements "Last of the prophets" and "Final prophet"?
IMO: "Last of the Prophets" can mean:
1) "He is the Last of the Prophets now"
So it can imply that there were more Prophets at that time, but others were killed (happened a lot at that time)
('as in: 'The Last of the Mohicans: A Narrative of 1757 is a historical novel written by James Fenimore Cooper in 1826')
2) "last prophet in this century"
3) "last prophet in this millennium"

So this might be (if correct translated) one of the verses that are called "ambiguous" in my favorite Koran verse 3:07 (which my Master gave me personally)
Arberry: It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.
 
Last edited:

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You have given some translations that say "Last of the prophets". So how would you differentiate between the English statements "Last of the prophets" and "Final prophet"?
Are you saying that "for all time" as an additional phrase must exist after saying last?
What is the correct word in Arabic.
If I check below link quite a few (4) translate "Last", some (2) translate with "Seal"
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

If I check below link it is translated as "Seal".
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

In your opinion, is the correct Arabic original word "Seal"?
In your opinion, does "Seal" = "Final"?
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
You have given some translations that say "Last of the prophets".
So how would you differentiate between the English statements "Last of the prophets" and "Final prophet"?
Are you saying that "for all time" as an additional phrase must exist after saying last?
"Last of the Prophets" is definitely ambiguous (I would not go there, remembering verse 3:07)
"Final Prophet" is definitely ambiguous (I would not go there, remembering verse 3:07)
"For all time" is definitely risky to use (I would not go there at all)
"Seal of the Prophets" Aha, that is the only 1 that I like; does not equal to "the Final one"
 
Last edited:

firedragon

Veteran Member
IMO: "Last of the Prophets" can mean:
1) "He is the Last of the Prophets now"
So it can imply that there were more Prophets at that time, but others were killed (happened a lot at that time)
('as in: 'The Last of the Mohicans: A Narrative of 1757 is a historical novel written by James Fenimore Cooper in 1826')
2) "last prophet in this century"
3) "last prophet in this millennium"

So this might be (if correct translated) one of the verses that are called "ambiguous" in my favorite Koran verse 3:07 (which my Master gave me personally)
Arberry: It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are verses clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds.

Well, it does not say "Last of the prophets now".

The translation that was provided just says "Last of the prophets". Thats it.

And this is arabic brother, not English. I understand your last of the mohicans analogy, which is plural. But this is singular.

I will try to say that in your analogy.

His name is Hawkeye, and he is the last of the mohicans.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
What is the correct word in Arabic.
If I check below link quite a few (4) translate "Last", some (2) translate with "Seal"
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

If I check below link it is translated as "Seal".
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran

In your opinion, is the correct Arabic original word "Seal"?
In your opinion, does "Seal" = "Final"?

Its hatham. (H with phlegm).

You know when you water a plant, think of burying the seed and covering it and putting water and now you are done with it. In arabic when you are "Done with it", you say Hithamun. Same word. Hatham.

When you have written something, you finalise it, you are done with it, so now you put a wax seal to show that "Its done". Thats hatham.

When something is finished, done, and sealed or stamped you say "Mahthoom". Same word. Hatham.

Thus, if you wish to translate the word into one english word, seal is the most appropriate word but when you read in english you can make all kinds mistakes like you would easily see in this thread.

Peace.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Well, it does not say "Last of the prophets now".
The translation that was provided just says "Last of the prophets". Thats it.
Thank you for your explanation.
You missed my point though

"Last of the prophets".
"Last of the Prophets" could also mean: At the time of revelation, there is 1 Prophet, Muhammad (the last Prophet in the line of Prophets send to earth so far)
So, it does not necessarily imply that there will be no other Prophets after Muhammad, it could, but also could not. God can start another batch of Prophets.

And this is arabic brother, not English. I understand your last of the mohicans analogy, which is plural. But this is singular.
The word by word translation (see .pdf attached) has an error in it, you think?
It says explicitly: genitive masculine plural noun
 

Attachments

  • Koran33_40.pdf
    74.4 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

Pastek

Sunni muslim
That is very simply and well put. To derive an interpretation of a single verse of the Quran to mean God’s Revelation to humanity is forever ended with Muhammad is to limit God.

It's not a single verse, there's many.

3.85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

5.3 (...) This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (...)


28.48 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said, "Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?" Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, "[They are but] two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers."

28.49 Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them that I may follow it, if you should be truthful."


You are following another Scripture meaning it's better than the Quran or the Quran is not complete.
 
Top