Why I Cannot Abide Organized Religion

[mikkel_the_dane]

Seriously? A fallacy of composition.

So there is no values in any part of the universe? How did your values as you hold them come as a part from something that has no values?
So there is no cause and effect and you aren't a part of series of cause and effect since the Big Bang? Or are you Ex Nihilo?

 

[PureX]

You think that makes sense, but I'm afraid that you are leaving out the fact that there could well be (and it is even very likely that, given the evidence we have so far) the answer is known, and that the answer is: "there is no great mystery source, sustenance or purpose -- this 'just happened' this way, in this universe."

The biggest problem with assuming a source or purpose is that then you are left with the meta-question, "wherefore that particular source or purpose?" And that leaves you just where you were before -- nowhere.

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You think that makes sense, but I'm afraid that you are leaving out the fact that there could well be (and it is even very likely that, given the evidence we have so far) the answer is known, and that the answer is: "there is no great mystery source, sustenance or purpose -- this 'just happened' this way, in this universe."

The biggest problem with assuming a source or purpose is that then you are left with the meta-question, "wherefore that particular source or purpose?" And that leaves you just where you were before -- nowhere.

Yeah, ***MOD EDIT*** empirical realist it is. But I do like that you are skeptical, yet certain of your own position that you don't doubt that.

 

[Kooky]

I do not see how ongoing existence implies either intent or goal or agency.

It doesn't.

 

[lukethethird]

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Purpose and meaning are human constructs devised to help us make sense of everything, not some mystery from out there somewhere.

 

[PureX]

Purpose and meaning are human constructs devised to help us make sense of everything, not some mystery from out there somewhere.

And yet, "out there somewhere" exists. And we didn't make it so.

See post #29

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It doesn't.

In your worldview. It is actually unknown one way or another as least so far in recorded history.

 

[ppp]

The difference is in the application. You 'beliefs' are apt in regards to determining the efficacy of crossing a river. You gather the information you need to establish a reasonable probability that you can cross without drowning (or whatever). But when it comes to the great mystery of (my) existence, what information is there to gather? How do I establish ANY probability? ... It is an instance where 'belief' is basically just going to be an absurd presumption.

So, maybe that is the point where we diverge. I don't see any Great Mystery (my caps) to my existence. I think its a mystery and I think it is wondrous, but I don't see any evidence of an underlying agency.

When we find ourselves in these kinds of situations, where the pertinent information is not available, and not going to become available, that's when we can choose faith. Faith isn't about information and probabilities, because they are insufficient. Instead, faith is about imagination, and desire, and choosing to act on behalf of what we HOPE TO BE TRUE as opposed to what we "believe' to be true based on ... whatever. And the interesting thing about faith is that it has a tendency to create the results that we'd hoped for BECAUSE WE ACTED on that behalf of that hope.

Interesting. Please don't take this as derision. But that seems to me more like desperation. Like if I am on the top of a burning building, and my only chance to survive is by leaping 12 feet to the next building. I make the leap because that is the only choice I have, and I HOPE that I will make it. But if the building is not burning, why make the leap?

This is not to say that I deplore exploration into the unknown. I am all in favor of it. I just need some reason to think that there is a "there" to explore.

 

[lukethethird]

To you. Don't forget that. Stop being The Truth of all humans.

I could say a lot worse, and His followers as well.

 

[lukethethird]

And yet, "out there somewhere" exists. And we didn't make it so.

See post #29

Purpose and meaning varies with every individual, they have nothing to do with out there somewhere.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Purpose and meaning are human constructs devised to help us make sense of everything, not some mystery from out there somewhere.

Well, yes. They, the human constructs, are Ex Nihilo.
In other words if you are right, we are not connect to objective reality.
So you are only living in your mind.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I could say a lot worse, and His followers as well.

Sorry, I forgot. You are objective reality, that is how objective you are.

 

[ppp]

So you are in effect a **mod edit** empirical realist.

[shrug]

Okay. But from your experience of me doesn't follow that I exist as me. Only that you have an experience of me, unless your experience of me is me as me. So you haven't ground your use of "we". You take for granted the rest of the world in itself is as you experience it. How do you know that?

Asking me "How do you know that?" seems to be ignoring my post to which you are responding. Did you know understand what I said?

 

[ppp]

So there is no values in any part of the universe?

Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, maybe that is the point where we diverge. I don't see any Great Mystery (my caps) to my existence. I think its a mystery and I think it is wondrous, but I don't see any evidence of an underlying agency.


Interesting. Please don't take this as derision. But that seems to me more like desperation. Like if I am on the top of a burning building, and my only chance to survive is by leaping 12 feet to the next building. I make the leap because that is the only choice I have, and I HOPE that I will make it. But if the building is not burning, why make the leap?

This is not to say that I deplore exploration into the unknown. I am all in favor of it. I just need some reason to think that there is a "there" to explore.

So how did objective reality cause you to need subjective reasons?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

[shrug]

Asking me "How do you know that?" seems to be ignoring my post to which you are responding. Did you know understand what I said?

Yes, you don't question your own position in regards to objective reality. You take it for granted. You are only skeptical of other forms of subjective understanding, but not your own.

 

[ppp]

So how did objective reality cause you to need subjective reasons?

relevance?

 

[Kooky]

In your worldview. It is actually unknown one way or another as least so far in recorded history.

No, not "in my worldview" - by the rules of logical argumentation and rational rigor that we both have implicitly agreed upon for the duration of this discussion. If you think you have a stronger case than me, you need to be able to argue this within the boundaries of those rules.



Of course, outside those rules, the gloves are off - and outside those rules, I can just tell you that you're wrong and believe it, and there is nothing you can do to change that, and since per your own understanding you're only a figment of my own imagination with no intrinsic qualities, that's all I ever need to do.

EDIT: Cognitive solipsism is ultimately self defeating, because everyone can do it, but there is only one subjectively real person in my subjective world, and it isn't you.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Fallacy of composition - Wikipedia

Well, either you are a part of the whole and as such caused by the whole back to the Big Bang or you are Ex Nihilo. Take your pick.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

relevance?

You claim subjective reasons and subjective needs. How did they come about all the way back to the Big Bang?