Why Don't The Progressives Care About the Injustices Toward Arabs from Arab Governments?

[Revoltingest]

Right... it strikes me as strange to be criticizing people for not criticizing something that's so obviously wrong.

You haven't criticized Hitler once yet today.
Nazi lover!

 

[Bunyip]

Fortunately for the US it was at that time.

No it wasn't.

It was illegal under international law. Calling torture 'enhanced interrogation techniques', wouldn't fool a three year old.

Call an apple a monkey, it is still an apple.

 

[Flankerl]

He is the first president to go where the terrorists have been hiding and attack them there as well as their state sponsors.

Wait who invaded Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Poor Iraq. They were quite literally sitting in the dust minding their own business being a failed state when they switched on the news and heard about all the WMD accusations.
Curveball was such a nice fellow. Lives in Germany btw and gets money from the state.

That "waterboarding" averted major terrorist attacks and ultimately led to the killing of OBL.

Torture tends to be fun unless its done to yourself.

Ever thought about that it may hit you one day?

It wasn't a violation of the law. It was necessary to stop terror attacks.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles | CNS News

CIA chief: Waterboarding aided bin Laden raid - TODAY News - TODAY.com

The truth is still the truth whether you want to see it or not.

CMike lets be grown up for a second.

Obviously the CIA claims that its an important asset, it gives them more power over their targets
If they'd claim otherwise they'd lose a new asset which would weaken them.

Also never believe your forgeign intelligence agency. Its what Benjamin Franklin would have said.

 

[CMike]

Wait who invaded Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Poor Iraq. They were quite literally sitting in the dust minding their own business being a failed state when they switched on the news and heard about all the WMD accusations.
Curveball was such a nice fellow. Lives in Germany btw and gets money from the state.

I knew we were agreeing too much.

Let's see Saddam Hussein
Tried to assassianate a US president
Had WMD
Was building nukes
Sponsored terrorism

It was time for him to go. The US just had the worst attack in it's history. We "the US" didn't want to wait until the terrorists delivered another surprise.

Torture tends to be fun unless its done to yourself.

Ever thought about that it may hit you one day?

It wasn't even close to torture. CIA operatives are waterboarded in far worse conditions than these three arch terrorists.

As far as it occurring to me I am not a mastermind terrorists who was taunting interrogators about the next terrorist attack.

CMike lets be grown up for a second.

Obviously the CIA claims that its an important asset, it gives them more power over their targets
If they'd claim otherwise they'd lose a new asset which would weaken them.

Also never believe your forgeign intelligence agency. Its what Benjamin Franklin would have said.

Naaaa. I would much rather believe the leftists groups than CIA officials whom were actually involved.

The waterboarding saved thousands of american lives. It was done to three arch terrorists and no other method worked.

It was the right thing to do, and it should never have been stopped under the Obama regime.

 

[CMike]

No it wasn't.

It was illegal under international law. Calling torture 'enhanced interrogation techniques', wouldn't fool a three year old.

Call an apple a monkey, it is still an apple.

Aside that it wasn't torture.

I really don't care about what the ethically and morally challenged UN think or say.

It saved thousands of american lives. I am grateful that it was done and helped avert another catastrophe in the US.

 

[Penumbra]

Okay...I know I am going to regret this but I don't get it.

Women have no rights in almost all arab countries, especially the ones fighting Israel.

They can be beaten legally for any reason.

They can be beaten/killed for going outside without a male chaperone.

They must legally wear the black "outerwear" or face punishment.

They must abide by Shaira law.

Men as well have no rights.

There is no right to a trial much less a fair trial.

There are no civil rights.

It's illegal to be homosexual.

The arabs living in Israel proper have a higher standard of living than in any arab country. They have full civil rights. They can vote, and are represented in parliament. An arab is part of the Israeli Supreme Court and arabs hold numerous political positions in Israel.

In Tel Aviv there is an annual gay parade.

Why are the progressives defending these arab countries and their treatment of their citizens? At the very least why don't they ever criticize them?

I've openly criticized Islam itself and Arab cultures in regards to status of women and other social issues, both on this forum and elsewhere.

Are you sure you're not just seeing what you want to see, with regards to progressives?

I tend to agree, Phil. It's not that so-called "progressives" are not critical of these things, it's more in their rationale, really. One need only read the words of some of the more outspoken "progressives" on RF to see what I mean.

Can you clarify?

 

[Bunyip]

Aside that it wasn't torture.

I really don't care about what the ethically and morally challenged UN think or say.

It saved thousands of american lives. I am grateful that it was done and helped avert another catastrophe in the US.

Torture is torture, no matter what pathetic euphamism you apply to it.

It is evil and unforgiveable - it makes the US as bad as the enemy.

OH And just a little correction - Saddam didn't have WMD by the way, we were wrong.

 

[Alceste]

Right... it strikes me as strange to be criticizing people for not criticizing something that's so obviously wrong.

It's not strange if you are desperately trying to make the case that progressives are just sophisticated anti-semites rather than sincere pacifists.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Aside that it wasn't torture.

I really don't care about what the ethically and morally challenged UN think or say.

It saved thousands of american lives. I am grateful that it was done and helped avert another catastrophe in the US.

A whole new level of depravity. Sociopath or not, your misanthropy is astounding.

 

[Flankerl]

I knew we were agreeing too much.

Let's see Saddam Hussein
Tried to assassianate a US president
Had WMD
Was building nukes
Sponsored terrorism

Well the CIA had the hobby to try to assassinate Fidel Castro.

Had no WMDs. They werent there. The UN found nothing. Not even Chemical weapons in weapon grade quantities.
Even though some old stuff was found which couldnt be used for anything. Obviously some people made it into the Tzar Bomb redux Iraqi style.

The nuclear program was abandoned long ago. Far too expensive.

Sponsored terrorism? Like?

It was time for him to go. The US just had the worst attack in it's history. We "the US" didn't want to wait until the terrorists delivered another surprise.

Iraq, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. There was nothing to link him or his country to 9/11.
It was all in the heads of the neocons. They even admitted it.

All the reasons to invade Iraq stem from Curveball, an informant of the German intelligence service. The German intelligence service thought he wasnt credible, well that didnt matter because Powell used all the funny stuff Curveball came up with in front of the UN.

It wasn't even close to torture. CIA operatives are waterboarded in far worse conditions than these three arch terrorists.

As far as it occurring to me I am not a mastermind terrorists who was taunting interrogators about the next terrorist attack.

Thats the fun part, sometimes innocent people get subjected to treatment which they dont deserve... because they are innocent.

Naaaa. I would much rather believe the leftists groups than CIA officials whom were actually involved.

The waterboarding saved thousands of american lives. It was done to three arch terrorists and no other method worked.

It was the right thing to do, and it should never have been stopped under the Obama regime.

Regime? Did i miss the takeover?

You do realise that these partisan politics will be the doom of your country?

 

[CMike]

Torture is torture, no matter what pathetic euphamism you apply to it.

It is evil and unforgiveable - it makes the US as bad as the enemy.

OH And just a little correction - Saddam didn't have WMD by the way, we were wrong.

What would have been immoral and unethical is not doing what needed to be done to stop at least two other major terrorist attacks.

1) Another 911 attack in LA

2) Exploding a dirty bomb in Washington DC

You could explain to the families why their loved ones are dead because the US didn't want to get three arch terrorists wet.

 

[Bunyip]

What would have been immoral and unethical is not doing what needed to be done to stop at least two other major terrorist attacks.

1) Another 911 attack in LA

2) Exploding a dirty bomb in Washington DC

You could explain to the families why their loved ones are dead because the US didn't want to get three arch terrorists wet.

Nothing justifies torture. Nothing.

My qualifications are in Security, Terrorism and Counter Terrorism - there is a vast body of military research going back centuries to demonstrate that torture is counter productive. It brutalises and dehumanises the torturer as much as the tortured.

If the torturers win a war, what have you won?

You are also as usual mistaken - just as Saddam did not in fact have WMD's, it was not the products of torture that prevented either of those attacks. In fact when the atrocities at Abu Graib were revealed it made an entrenched conflict substantially worse and directly endangered the lives of all of the brave servicemen and women fighting in the field.

 

[Bunyip]

CMike

Let me explain in the simplest possible terms why torture is wrong, evil and counterproductive

This has been known for centuries.

The reason why we do not torture the sons and daughters of our enemy is because by doing so we endanger our sons and daughters who we send to fight them.

The reason why civilised societies advocate for the good treatment of enemy prisoners - is because we want our sons and daughters to be treat with respect if they are captured in turn.

 

[Bunyip]

CMike

OH, and if you do not count waterboarding as torture - you have never experienced it.

 

[Alceste]

CMike

Let me explain in the simplest possible terms why torture is wrong, evil and counterproductive

This has been known for centuries.

The reason why we do not torture the sons and daughters of our enemy is because by doing so we endanger our sons and daughters who we send to fight them.

The reason why civilised societies advocate for the good treatment of enemy prisoners - is because we want our sons and daughters to be treat with respect if they are captured in turn.

Also, even if you are a sociopath and the fate of our fighters overseas means nothing to you, torture only makes people say what you tell them to say, or whatever they think you want to hear. Whatever makes the torture stop. There has never been a reliable morsel of new information extracted by torture.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

CMike

OH, and if you do not count waterboarding as torture - you have never experienced it.

That's irrelevant. Most people agree that water boarding is torture because it fits the basic definitions for torture. Experiencing it is completely beside the point. You don't need to shoot yourself in the head to understand that it will kill you (in most cases).

What we have here is the inability or refusal to participate in the fundamental human experience: to empathize with another person, come alongside them in our imagination, and treat them as we would treat ourselves. People who can't do this are sociopaths.

So instead of thinking or feeling it out, what we have is a naked, unwavering dedication to the demonization of everything Arab (especially Gaza and Palestinians) and a pitiless, uncritical dedication to the promotion of Israel.

Nothing else matters: Israel is promoted to such a profound degree that it's basically a god, incapable of the slightest wrong, and Palestinians are essentially the root of all evil.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Torture is wonderful. It worked so well for the Inquisition. The Horrors of The Church and its Holy Inquisition

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's irrelevant. Most people agree that water boarding is torture because it fits the basic definitions for torture. Experiencing it is completely beside the point. You don't need to shoot yourself in the head to understand that it will kill you (in most cases).

What we have here is the inability or refusal to participate in the fundamental human experience: to empathize with another person, come alongside them in our imagination, and treat them as we would treat ourselves. People who can't do this are sociopaths.

So instead of thinking or feeling it out, what we have is a naked, unwavering dedication to the demonization of everything Arab (especially Gaza and Palestinians) and a pitiless, uncritical dedication to the promotion of Israel.

Nothing else matters: Israel is promoted to such a profound degree that it's basically a god, incapable of the slightest wrong, and Palestinians are essentially the root of all evil.

Well said! :clap

 

[Bunyip]

Also, even if you are a sociopath and the fate of our fighters overseas means nothing to you, torture only makes people say what you tell them to say, or whatever they think you want to hear. Whatever makes the torture stop. There has never been a reliable morsel of new information extracted by torture.

Brilliant Alceste. Absolutely correct. And that is EXACTLY what centuries of military research has demonstrated.

The information you get from torture can not be verified until after the event, and hence is useless. It does not work.

And if the government wants to send MY son, who I love more than life itself to war - it better bloody well agree to a set of rules of conduct that exclude torture.

 

[Bunyip]

That's irrelevant. Most people agree that water boarding is torture because it fits the basic definitions for torture. Experiencing it is completely beside the point. You don't need to shoot yourself in the head to understand that it will kill you (in most cases).

What we have here is the inability or refusal to participate in the fundamental human experience: to empathize with another person, come alongside them in our imagination, and treat them as we would treat ourselves. People who can't do this are sociopaths.

So instead of thinking or feeling it out, what we have is a naked, unwavering dedication to the demonization of everything Arab (especially Gaza and Palestinians) and a pitiless, uncritical dedication to the promotion of Israel.

Nothing else matters: Israel is promoted to such a profound degree that it's basically a god, incapable of the slightest wrong, and Palestinians are essentially the root of all evil.

Could not agree more, well said.

CMike's mindset is what makes these conflicts so utterly intractible. It is why young men and women are still dying over a dispute that could have been resolved 60 years ago.