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Featured Why Does God Permit Evil?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by nPeace, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . By that reasoning are you saying there will be evil in heaven?



    John
     
  2. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    They say the the Lord deceived a person or persons. What is the functional difference between deception and lying?
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Why Does God Permit Evil?
    Something can have many functions.
    Deceptive function? Lying function? I'm not sure. Or did you have in mind objective.

    You may ask, "Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar?"
    I could say, "What are you looking at me for!!?"
    Or I could say, "Not me!"
    While my stomach is delighted I took it.
    One of my answers is deceptive, one is lying.
     
  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    No, the first response is a deflection and is not an answer to the question. The two possible answers are "yes" or "no".
     
  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I deflected your question in order to deceive you into thinking... It wasn't me. ..and pray to the gods it worked.:D
     
  6. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

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    I'm not sure we can agree. Perhaps a better way to put it would be to say that while God is responsible for evils that are committed, He isn't guilty of these evils. The difference lies in the motive. Look at what Joseph said to his brothers about what they did to him:

    "As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this—to preserve the lives of many people." (Genesis 50:19)

    God works evil for good; we work evil for evil, therefore He is blameless and we are guilty.

    And if Satan is under God's control, which he is of course, then we can't say Satan operates independently. I believe I mentioned earlier that He gave Satan explicit permission to harm Job, instructing him only to spare his life eventually.

    There are many examples of God telling people not only that He is going to bring evil upon them, but even telling them how He is going to bring it. He told the Jews that He would literally make them eat their own children, and we discover later that this did in fact happen. What do you have to say about that?

    I think I answered this above.

    I don't see this as correct. It seems to me that you're trying to reason your way into God creating evil by some circumspect means, but when we look at the original sin, committed by Eve, the sin occurred because God had determined it should occur. Otherwise, he wouldn't have created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, neither would He have placed it in an area where Eve could access its fruit. There is a clear intent here on His part that Eve should sin, not that it excuses her. Again, it's in the motive. Eve disobeyed the Lord for evil, but the Lord intended her sin for good, so that she (and Adam) could be made in His image, knowing the difference between good and evil:

    "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil...'" (Genesis 3:22)
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I think I exaggerated in hindsight saying that you can't do any good. What I meant to say is that there are some good things you wouldn't be able to do.

    Sorry about that.
     
  8. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Don't be sorry. These things are tricky.


    John
     
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I really don't see why we can't agree, but I understand why we don't.

    What Joseph said to whom?
    I think if you read that again in the way it is, it says, 'what you intended against me for evil.' Not, 'what God intended...'

    The way you are reasoning seems to me very contradicting to every other statement you make.
    You say we are not robots, and that we are responsible for our actions, which carry consequences. Yet you seem to be saying God committed the evils that Joseph's brothers committed against him.

    So that would mean that all the jealous hatred they had was God's doing, and responsibility.
    I wonder what you would say of Cain's actions against his brother Abel. Was God also responsible for his actions? Was God using Cain to commit evil against his brother? Was he pretending to warn Cain to turn from sin?
    Then you mention Satan, and say that Satan is under God's control.
    What do you mean? Do you mean God is in control in that he has ultimate power to destroy, or allow Satan to live, and he has ultimate control to either allow or prevent him from doing anything? Or do you mean he controls his actions?
    You probably would also say that God controls the world - which the Bible clearly and straight-forwardly says, No he does not (world meaning the system under Satan's rule.
    He is almighty, but he also has control over is actions, so if he wants he can allow something, or disallow it, and in this thread it has already been mentioned why God allows evil and suffering.

    No Michael. I cannot go along with what amounts to me to be a gross misrepresentation of the sovereign of the universe.
    If I am understanding you correctly, these ideas imo, are no different from those that claim that God torments people in an eternal fire.

    Based on my understanding of scripture, I didn't see these ideas supported scripturally. God does not work evil for good.

    How do you reconcile that idea with your statements?
    I demonstrated in what way God can be said to create or bring evil.
    I thought it was quite reasonable, but we see things differently, don't we?
    The same was true when Messiah walked the earth. All heard his sayings, but had different understandings and opinions.

    This sounds to me more like your reasoning Mike - where you may not understand the purpose or representation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and so impute your thinking.

    I can understand that, since rightly so, anyone can come up with an interpretation on any scripture, but the problem with that is, although the scriptures cannot literally speak, they do represent themselves. So, where do you find any scriptures to support your idea that
    Nowhere. It is clear that you are guessing, that your thoughts are correct, hence, you start with
    If you can support those ideas scripturally, we can take a closer look at the trees in the middle of the garden. However, I think you first need to harmonize your statements - which are clashing both with your ideas and scripture.

    James 1:13-15 is one of those I mentioned.
     
    #189 nPeace, Jun 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
  10. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

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    You're not understanding me. Joseph said to his brothers, "what you intended," yes, but then he said "God intended for good..." There is a qualifying statement there that you're simply ignoring. The one act had two different intentions by two different parties. The human intention was evil; God's intention was good. And if God had an intention for the action, then obviously He was every bit as responsible for it as Joseph's brothers were. As I said, the difference is in the motive.

    Again, you're imputing unrighteousness to God when His intentions are always righteous. Always!

    Yes, God is certainly responsible for Abel's death, or He isn't sovereign. But while Cain killed Abel out of the evil in his heart, God appointed Abel to die to accomplish something for good. There are lessons we've all learned from that story, and I'm sure there were many other good things that came from Abel's death that can't be known at this time. It's very difficult, if not impossible, to see the good that comes from evil most times, but if we believe that God is good and that He is also sovereign, then we know that that is what is happening.

    Satan is God's servant for good. The story of Job is an irrefutable example of this. God gives Satan explicit permission to harm Job in terrible ways. Why do you think He did that? Did He not know what the outcome would be? Of course He did!

    Job had to learn through suffering that God's ways are "too wonderful to know." (Job 42:3) He had been trusting in his own righteousness, which amounted to filthy rags, and didn't realize that God had sent Satan to afflict him to teach him a lesson, not as punishment for some sin.

    Your idea of sovereign is erroneous. There are so many examples of God outright controlling people as though they are robots. Take Pharoah in Exodus, for example. The Scriptures say that God hardened his heart, so that he wouldn't let the people go. He had no choice in the matter whatsoever.

    You also conveniently ignored my example of God turning the Jews into cannibals, as He had warned them He would do. That is sovereignty, total control of both good and evil, and even turning our evils into good. His power is far greater than you give Him credit for.

    Why is that? I'm not claiming to know, but I know that I personally had a very, very difficult time accepting that God had been behind the evils that befell me over the course of my life. Or maybe you just value your independence and feel threatened by such power...? Again, not saying either way, but these are things you should consider.

    Unlike you, I've backed up my arguments with several Scriptures and practical examples. You gave me some theoretical situation you conjured up and which has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

    The reasoning you're referring to is simply common sense. God wouldn't have put the tree in the garden unless He intended its fruit to be eaten as it was, otherwise He is a bumbling fool, and He most certainly is not.

    It's sort of like Satan, right? He was never a good angel, you know. Jesus Christ said Satan was a murderer from the beginning (John 8:44), the rest is all myth and has no Scriptural basis. He created Satan to serve His purposes, not as some unforeseen renegade gumming up the works.
     
    #190 Michael1981, Jun 19, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Let me start by saying Michael... You the man.:clapping:
    I like the way you handle yourself - very composed... I detect a little anger, but that's good. A little anger is good:smile: I had a bit of that while writing my last post.:laughing:
    Nonetheless, you're thick... for now :grinning: and I like that.

    So now, let's see...
    Thanks for trying to help me understand by making it clearer.
    So...
    I stabbed my brother to death - God forbid... [​IMG]
    So, is it you are saying that because God did not forbid me, he is responsible, but then he can or does use my bad, for good?

    If that's what you are saying, I say, 'Ah... now I get you. Okay.'
    I wouldn't say God is responsible, for their actions though. The choice was theirs.
    Deuteronomy 32:5 Comparison

    So, whereas you say God is responsible, the scripture say NO.
    As the supreme creator, he is only responsible for they being alive not their actions.

    Psalm 95:10, 11; Hebrews 3:10, 11

    The scriptures do identify the culprit that is primarily responsible for evil and suffering, and it's not God.
    1 John 5:19 Comparison
    The Devil, according to scripture, is the perpetrator of evil. John 8:44

    Nope. Not me. I totally agree with that. Job 34:10
    I think I understand your view, since I got it cleared up above - provided I am understanding you correctly. :) If not I stand corrected.
    Again, the scriptures do not support your view.
    I already explained, although almighty, the creator is not responsible for ever thought, word, and deed. He wants persons to choose wisely.
    Genesis 4:6, 7; Ezekiel 18:32

    Ezekiel 33:11


    I think that's the problem here Mike - understanding what you mean, when you say what you say. ...if you get what I am saying.:)

    Could you clarify for us what you mean by
    Oh. You did clarify. You say
    The scriptures say God allowed Satan to test his servant Job. Job 1:12

    Ah. So you are saying God controls people like robots.
    So, help me understand this one Mike. How is it you say
    Yet you say
    This seems contradictory to me. Could you clarify?

    I like your humble manner. To me, it's an indication that you genuinely believe what you say. I'm sure you would humbly admit that we can be sincerely wrong.
    I am quite willing to consider any scriptures you can provide that would show that your understanding is in harmony with scripture.
    So far I have not seen that, but I am listening.:)


    Thanks... for getting me started on scripture. I appreciate talking with one who uses scripture to support an argument.
    A few on this thread did use scripture to support what is not just based on common sense - which doesn't validate God's thoughts as presented in scripture.
    Did you take a look at the links - 1, 2, 3.

    According to scriptures...
    1) God gave man free choice - free will, if you will. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20
    He wanted man to choose life - choose his way.

    2) Those who make the right choice to follow God's way, are rewarded with everlasting life. John 3:16; Romans 6:23

    3) All who wold gain life must be tested.
    Abraham - Genesis 22:1
    Moses - Exodus 16:4
    Israel - Deuteronomy 8:2
    ................the list is very, very long.

    So what about Adam and Eve?
    Enter the tree of knowledge of good and bad.

    Unlike what some believe, the tree had no magical powers, that would instantly impart special knowledge to man. It was an ordinary tree - like all the others. The tree of life also.
    Whereas the tree of knowledge of good and bad, was a representation of God's right to determine for them what was good or bad, it served as a test of their love and obedience of the one who placed the tree there, and gave them the command not to touch it.

    They failed the test, hence they were banished from the garden, and not allowed to eat of the tree of life which was God's guarantee to everlasting life.

    Although what I said here is not written, I think, it can be, and is verified by scripture, and reasoning on scripture.
    Touching the tree, and eating its fruit wasn't what killed them. It was God's punishment for their disobedience that did - the sentence of death. Their choice resulted in death. So it's not illogical, nor against scripture - which I have used - that the tree did serve as a test.

    However, if persons disagree, I do not argue that I be right, since it cannot be verified conclusively.
    That being said though, Michael, you have yet to provide scriptures that supports the view that
    You have not done so. You didn't even quote one scripture in support of this.
     
    #191 nPeace, Jun 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  12. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

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    Sorry for the late response; I couldn't get to this yesterday.

    The Truth is unpleasant to hear; our flesh hates it.

    God forbids evil; we ignore Him or rebel outright. Even before the ten commandments were written, we all knew that murder was wrong. We all have a conscience.

    And no, I'm not saying He is responsible in some sort of roundabout way. God is directly responsible as though He stabbed your brother. I've explained it before; why is it not getting through? Or is that you simply can't believe what you're hearing, and don't want to believe it? For the third time, I'll remind you of something, and this time I will quote the Scriptures:

    "Because of all your abominations, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. As a result, fathers among you will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers." (Ezekiel 5:9-10)

    Clearly He is performing an action here, and taking complete responsibility for it. Here is the evidence it happened:

    "The hands of compassionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food in the destruction of the daughter of my people." (Lamentations 4:11)

    Now, it's understandable that you don't like hearing this. It's difficult to imagine what good could possibly come from such a thing. But it's important to keep in mind that this was punishment for sin, for one, and two, to keep in mind that despite how horrible it was, God did indeed make it serve Him for good. Do you think He's incapable of such an incredible feat? What part of omnipotent doesn't compute for you, if so?

    Can I say how? Well, for one, it displayed His wrath for many future generations, so that we know with Whom we are dealing. God has never treated sin lightly. Doesn't the flood speak to this? Just Who do you think did that?

    And if you think God somehow changed after coming to us as Jesus Christ, think again. Look at Luke 13:1-5. Pilate killed some Galileans, and Jesus tells us it was punishment for not repenting. Similarly, what most would classify as an accident was no accident at all, that being the tower of Siloam falling on 18 people. Again, they didn't repent. And if anyone doesn't repent, they will likewise perish. It's just as true today as it was then. Whether it's a Muslim killing people in a murderous rage, an avalanche, or cancer, it's all the wrath of God. There is no argument that can be made against this, if we're going by the Scriptures.

    You should read this: The Wrath of God


    The very Scriptures you cite here contradict you. For one, they don't say anything about God being responsible for people being alive (though I can't argue with that). Two, what do you think He means when He says they will never enter His rest? Obviously they're not because He is performing an action that prevents them from doing so. Every one of that first generation perished before the Hebrews entered the Promised Land, because the wrath of God was upon them.

    You're going off on a tangent here, and didn't you quote this Scripture to me earlier, which again contradicts what you're saying here?

    "But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death." (James 1:1-16)

    While I don't believe He is responsible for every thought, word and deed in the way you seem to be implying, He is certainly capable of controlling us how He sees fit, whether for good or for evil. That is beyond dispute. I've already cited several examples.


    You're talking semantics here while ignoring the substance of the story. I don't
    see that God was testing Job in that Scripture. The NLT uses the word "test," but that is the only translation I saw using it. Even if we keep that word as "test," which may not be all that much of a stretch (it's not, really), you have to look at the end result.

    Job was in sin, and what God afflicted him with, via Satan, His servant, brought him to realize his sin. He was self-righteous, complaining bitterly and presumptuously, ignorant of the wonderful work the Lord was doing for him. Remember, he repented in dust and ashes; he was not some model of perfection. One can keep the law perfectly and still fall short of God's righteousness.


    I didn't contradict myself. I was specifically using my previous statement as contrast. No, we are not robots, but God can treat us like robots if He so chooses, because He is Lord. He can do this for evil or for good. I mentioned Pharoah in Exodus as an example of evil. Here is a Scripture on the good:

    "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.…" (Ezekiel 36:27)

    He gives us to obey, and He gives us to disobey. We can do neither absent His doing.


    I've provided plenty of Scriptures, even before this post.


    I did look over the links, albeit somewhat quickly. I saw some truth mixed with a lot of error.

    We do not have free will. That's an illusion. We are all subjected to vanity unwillingly (Romans 8:20).


    No one chooses to follow God's way:

    As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God." (Romans 3:10-11)

    I mention this only because you make it sound like we can earn our salvation. If that were the case, it wouldn't be salvation, because we would be saving ourselves. Salvation is a gift, it's all grace, every last bit of it. We're completely incapable of saving ourselves or making the right decisions absent His grace.

    I agree. We must all be tested in the fires of tribulation, refined as gold. But it's not our merit that is being tested, only God's work in us. There's a big difference there. Again, it's like Job. Was he being tested? In a way, sure, but he failed that test, which is why he had to repent in the end. However, upon repenting, the dross was burned away, and Job emerged as purified gold.

    So you can use your reasoning, but I can't? Why can't I say that God wouldn't have put the trees there without intending everything that transpired? Can you picture God putting a tree in the garden ignorant of what is going to happen if He puts it there? It's preposterous! How big a fool do you think He is???

    I'd like to mention one last thing. Earlier, above, you said that the Scriptures don't support my view that God uses evil for good. I guess the example of Joseph wasn't good enough for you.

    How about the example of Jesus Christ? The very worst crime ever committed, turned into the greatest blessing ever accomplished!
     
    #192 Michael1981, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018
  13. we-live-now

    we-live-now Active Member

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    We appear to be in a non-eternal un-truthful body that is dying and will die. It's only a matter of when but God sees them all as alive already. Luke 20:38, 1 Cor 15:22 We are in "time" and on "Earth" for training and teaching. By default we have a "compound eye" (dualistic view of "good/bad" or "right/wrong") that can see both truth that is hidden and the outer world that is fading away. Matt 6:22. True evil and suffering is believing this compound eye that we are somehow separate from each other and God. The separation never occurred except only in our mind. This is even backed up in scripture if one looks at the original words. Part of consciousness (Ego) split off as a shadow and thinks it is outside of God. This really is just a shadow reflection of the true (hidden) reality. Only God is real and therefore anything "outside God" is an illusion.

    The true creation of Genesis 1:1 (and only this verse) has never changed but we can't yet see it through external sight. However, some can get glimpses via true internal "vision". Gen 1:1 is the true "universe". (single-verse) There have been many other false creations that were "made" not created. The word "and" = "made". Hence the word "and" as the very first letter of Genesis 2. "And" = "made". "And" = fleshly covering of darkness (spiritual dust).

    So, please check out the word for the earth in Genesis 1:1 (the-earth) and the one for the earth in Genesis 1:2 (and-the-earth). What we are really seeing now is "and-the-earth" which is the true earth wrapped in darkness (flesh) of "and". This is the veil that is mentioned in scripture so often.

    While on the topic of "and"....Has anyone ever noticed that the "serpent" of Genesis 3 is not "the serpent" but rather "and-the-serpent". The serpent is wrapped in "and" (spiritual/atoning flesh). What was his goal? To get us to believe in a dualistic view of "good and evil". Also, the word for evil used in Gen 3 is "and-evil". It also has "and" attached. Once one has even a small glimpse of "Gods clay" of the word "and" many things will light up.

    God can do anything with "and" while keeping it hidden. The word "and" appears over 50,000 times in the bible and is how he kept from man what he is doing. John 15:6 says that "and" will be tossed into the fire (branches of unbelief in our minds/Ego will be removed). What that occurs, we will all see the truth of God as our father and life eternal for all of us. The veil of "death" will be removed and we will see there really was no such thing as death.

    The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow, And refined, aged wine. Is 25:6

    And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations Is 25:7

    He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken Is 25:8
     
  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to apologize Michael.

    "Because of all your abominations, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. As a result, fathers among you will eat their sons, and sons will eat their fathers." (Ezekiel 5:9-10)

    What's that he will do? As a result of what?

    He brought calamity on them, by means of the Chaldeans, a people who was always warring against them.
    It is the same as when the Egyptians enslaved Israel. It was out of envy and fear that Pharaoh acted.
    God allowed the Chaldeans to devastate Israel, as punishment for their failing to repent.
    As a result of siege of the Chaldeans, because the people refusing to further obey God and surrender, they felt forced to eat their own children.

    What action did he perform?

    The action God performed was to not aid the Israelites, when the Chaldeans came up against them. Hence Israel was powerless against a powerful empire that was devastating other nations around.
    God did not make the people eat their children. He neither put the knife in their hand, nor moved their hand to kill the child, cut it up, put it the pot, put it in their mouth, nor did he move their mouths to chew it.

    You seemed to have missed the scripture I used Deuteronomy 32:5
    I said this scripture does not support your view that God is responsible. It flat out says he is not.

    I understand your view, and understand many have different views. I think your views however, do not harmonize with scripture. I understand that you feel that I do not have the correct view.
    I am of the opinion that sometimes given time some of us do get a better understanding and adjust our view... or not, but at the end of the day God will judge between good and bad, right and wrong.

    That's where I leave this one.
     
  15. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

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    I think I've provided enough substance for you now. You'll not believe any of it unless given the grace to do so, which it appears you've not been given. So be it!

    "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him." (1 Corinthians 15:22-23)
     
  16. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    But the authors can.

    But Adam IS a dirt robot.

    How did they witness it since creation happened prior to humanity?

    He quoted a story. He wasn't there. Ask Genesis.

    How did they witness things they weren't there to witness?

    The bible can't give you witnesses. Archaeology might, but we don't have much in the way of proving the bible true there, at least past a certain part in history.

    Because Mesopotamian gods weren't. Hellenization brought about these ideas. Plato stupidly thought that abstract concepts were inherently pure or some crap and that's how we get the omni-stuff.

     
  17. Japle

    Japle Member

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    That “we’re to blame for our own actions” argument, which I’ve heard so many times before, breaks down when it comes to natural disasters.

    In 1985, a volcano erupted in Columbia, killing 25,000 to 30,000 people. Were those people responsible for the eruption? Was your god punishing them for something?

    Earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, avalanches, mudslides and other natural disasters kill, maim and injure at seeming random. Millions of children suffer and die agonizing deaths from disease every year. Whose actions are to blame?

    You can deflect blame all you want, but if your god is as powerful as he’s reputed to be, then he’s certainly not as loving as we’re told he is.

    If a god can stop the suffering of innocents and chooses not to, he’s responsible for that suffering.
     
  18. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

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    Religion:
    Non-denominational Christian
    I've already responded to all of your complaints earlier in the conversation. Read up.
     
  19. Japle

    Japle Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2017
    Messages:
    21
    Ratings:
    +10
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Michael1981:
    If you think your responses are at all convincing, you're just kidding yourself.
     
  20. Michael1981

    Michael1981 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Messages:
    65
    Ratings:
    +7
    Religion:
    Non-denominational Christian
    It's neither my purpose nor my desire to convince. What happens when you hear the Truth is between you and the Lord. I rest knowing that someday you'll know this is all true, to the glory of our Creator and to your tremendous benefit.
     
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