1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Why Does God Permit Evil?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by nPeace, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    3,811
    Ratings:
    +1,040
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    What does the Bible have to say on this subject?

    Some say if God existed, he would put an end to the suffering we see in the world.
    Others say that there is evidence God exists, and there is a reason why God permits suffering.
    I want to get some input on the Biblical view on why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering.
    Please try to provide scripture to support what you say, since this is supposed to present what the Bible says on the topic.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    3,466
    Ratings:
    +2,707
    Religion:
    Heathenry (Norse and Slavic Paganism)
    Seems pretty clear cut: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7 Why does he do it? Because he's god and - as he says - the only one.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    2,583
    Ratings:
    +594
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Isaiah 48:10 King James Version (KJV)
    10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

    First of all, as you can see it's to purify people. Make them better. Suffering helps people grow and become better people.


    Hosea 6:6 King James Version (KJV)
    6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

    Secondly, Without evil being in the world; you can't do any good. If everything was already good in the world then you could not show mercy to anyone because everyone would be taken care of already. So God allowed evil so that we could do good.
     
  4. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +80
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    Evil is God's tool for making men perfect, or for destruction. So it is a double edged sword, one edge blunt for perfection, the other sharp for destruction. The choice which to receive is yours alone.

    Heb 2:10
    For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
     
  5. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,672
    Ratings:
    +649
    Religion:
    Christian

    Hard question but all things are from through to and for Jesus. In some sense the evils of the world will advance the greater glory of Christ

    Showing mercy is near the apex of the glory of God and the mercies of God are on display in the forgiveness of the redeemed and the patient long suffering of God in a broken sin tainted world. In some measure satisfying the justice and mercy of God by having a substitute sacrifice for those redeemed.

    Showing justice is also for the glory of God in helping the fatherless, the widow, the stranger, the hunger, the naked. And bringing judgement at some point, in some measure righting the wrongs done by bringing judgement.

    God has a purpose for the pain and for the redeemed will someday wipe every tear from their eyes and the stunning mercy will make heaven more sweet as they see the nail prints in Jesus hands and side remaining there on display forever.
     
  6. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus Contradiction, irrationality and disorder

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    583
    Ratings:
    +347
    Religion:
    Thelemite (and strong-Theist)
    Without Evil, there is no good. Without Good, there is no Evil. Without Jesus, there is no Satan, without Satan there is no Jesus.

    This statement is both true and false, in saying this I am both correct and incorrect. It's irrelevant whether you view the Bible literally or not, the nature of life is not one or the other; it is always both - both Jesus and Lucifer knew this (again, not stating any of them to be 'real' or 'not-real'- merely stating the truth of their message)
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,656
    Ratings:
    +4,644
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    The idea the world in that God allowed evil in world from the Jewish/Christian perspective came from the belief God could only Create a perfect world, and the need to explain what appeared to be evil in terms of violence in the natural world and in humanity. Therefore the result is blame the first humans, Adam and Eve, for falling to temptation and bringing evil into the world ending the idealic perfect world of the Garden of Eden. This scenario extends in the Christian justification for their there belief in what was the purpose of Jesus Christ and Salvation. This is the result of a chain of mythological views beginning with Canaanite, Ugarit and Babylonian mythology.

    The reality is there is no evil, and the world and humanity exists as it is regardless of whether God exists or not.

    It is time to come out of Plato's cave,
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,656
    Ratings:
    +4,644
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Creation is as it is regardless of the fallible human views of vain efforts to define what is good or what is evil. The reality is that the world and humanity exists as it is without human preoccupations with what is good and evil.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus Contradiction, irrationality and disorder

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    583
    Ratings:
    +347
    Religion:
    Thelemite (and strong-Theist)
    This is correct, regardless of religion or non-religion, one can only grow (spiritually, personally, career-wise, relationship-wise, etc) by overcoming struggles and challenges, without these one cannot grow.

    Pain and suffering is a two edged sword; seeing them as an end to themselves is not a fundamental detriment to the human condition (in particular, as we are sentient and have existencial crisis' about these things, to a good reason) and by an extension, God.

    Assuming God exists in a theistic sense, and assuming God is omnipresent, omnipotent etc, then wouldn't it also be beneficial to question other aspects of Evil and suffering etc outside of simply questioning the validity of God on that question alone?


    In my own panentheistic belief of God, I believe that this "God" or Brahman is:

    Good
    Evil
    Both
    None
    and all of the above

    Both seriously and humorously. ;)
     
  10. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,656
    Ratings:
    +4,644
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    To really understand what the Bible (Genesis and the Pentateuch) concerning what is evil you will have to back to the Canaanite, Ugarit, and Babylonian cuneiform tablet myths, and understand how these views evolved over the millennia to manifest these beliefs in traditional Christianity and why.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,102
    Ratings:
    +1,878
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I find that God gave man dominion on this earth (Gen 1). Man gave entrance for Satan to have authority (Gen 3, Matt 4, Heb 2) and that ultimately Jesus differentiated that it is the thief that steals, kills and destroys and those who yield to him, does his deeds. (Eph 2)
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Frater Sisyphus

    Frater Sisyphus Contradiction, irrationality and disorder

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    583
    Ratings:
    +347
    Religion:
    Thelemite (and strong-Theist)
    In many ways, I do (referring back to my last post) think it stems from being sentient, which is perhaps where dual thinking stems, as I believe the nature of reality is unity - which encompasses both extreme good or holiness and extreme terror and evil. It does get very philosophically and sociopolitically controversial when it gets into ethics and morals but I do believe, taking Unity into consideration, the ideal position of a human being; is to be somewhere near the center. Both in a way (in this life) is possible insanity and maybe impossibility.
    All these things like creation and destruction come into play with trying to find a compass around the conclusions one may come to without creating logical restrictions around what has been stated (as the evil side is especially woeful to talk about, for various reasons, the topics of murder and rape and those kinds of things in particular). None of this derides moral codes which I think are necessary but do outline the issues of the 'good vs evil', black and white dual-thinking when talking about the very microcosmic concept of God and it's relevance to our own sentient awareness to it (all assuming that that theistic concept of God exists)
     
  13. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    53,715
    Ratings:
    +12,692
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    The Bible - Job in particular - gives a message that we shouldn’t even ask the question because we’re puny, God is mighty, and might makes right.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,385
    Ratings:
    +2,744
    Growth is painful and that's a fact. How much growth develops in Someone who spends their entire life avoiding pain? And how often are they the ones who most often inflict pain on others? The inverse am I the only person who through pain and suffering had their greatest personal growth? I don't think so.... Sometimes suffering is later seen more clearly as neccesity which you then realise I actually needed exactly that.

    What exactly is evil?
     
  15. outlawState

    outlawState Deism is dead

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2017
    Messages:
    571
    Ratings:
    +80
    Religion:
    Universal Protestant
    The question [that we should not ask] being "why the God of the Bible would allow evil and suffering?"

    No, the message is not that we should not ask the question, but that we should give the right answer i.e. ... "of things beyond me which I did not know (things too wonderful for me, which I knew not)" and not the wrong answer, such as any answer that might

    Job 40:8
    ... disannul [God's] judgment. Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

    There is more than a hint of condemnation of God in "God is mighty, and might makes right." It is rather "God is so mighty that humans can't be expected to understand God's purposes but need to preserve trust in God."
     
  16. Shushersbedamned

    Shushersbedamned Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,472
    Ratings:
    +262
    Religion:
    Lutheran
    It isn't up to him. I don't believe god created the universe I believe he happens to exist with it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Deidre

    Deidre اتبع القلب

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6,574
    Ratings:
    +5,055
    Religion:
    Spiritual Christian
    That's interesting, I've never heard that description before.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,149
    Ratings:
    +2,182
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Hypothetical speaking: God created the whole universe. Quite a Big Job. Humans suffering seems nano-small problem from my viewpoint. Unless you see human GIGA-big and important as compared to this whole universe.

    What the Bible says: God created and saw "It is good". God is omniscient. Are you? I am not! So I leave that judgment to God. He created it, His responsibility.
     
  19. Jumi

    Jumi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2014
    Messages:
    9,881
    Ratings:
    +5,448
    Religion:
    Secular theist (none)
    Does anything in the Bible say that God of the Bible wanted to put an end to suffering in the world?

     
  20. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,310
    Ratings:
    +814
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Did you lose God? He was here a minute ago. Did you say something to offend Him? Good people keep finding God and then others keep on losing Him. Try to keep Him for a while next time you find Him, ok?
     
Loading...