Why do you say Jesus is God?

[UnityNow101]

If he isn't, then he was a looney (be it a very knowledgeable and intelligent looney)!

Maybe he was looney...Why are we so reluctant to search out these things or to even question them? Are we so afraid of the implications? Or do we just want to stay in the line that was prepared by society and held together by the ideas and beliefs of many?

In no way am I saying that Jesus was insane, but it is a possibilty that must be evaluated and thought out. We cannot be so afraid that we don't even put these things to question..We must not be too quick to question the accepted norms...

 

[Blood Thirsty Blade]

Jesus said in John 10:30 "I and my Father are One"
One - 1.Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being. 2.Characterized by unity; undivided: a.Of the same kind or quality: b.Forming a single entity of two or more components
In John 17:11 Jesus prays and says "...keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Same word, same definition, look it up. Now if the disciples are one AS the Father and Son are one are they not still 12 individuals. But they are One in that something unifies them, they are of one body, one being.That Being is Christ.
in John 17:21, again Jesus is praying (to the Father, Not to himself) saying, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"
As - To the same extent or degree; equally
So he's saying to the same extent or degree the Father is in him and he in the Father, let his believers be one in them also.
Now is a believer God? Is a believer Jesus of Nazareth? Are we not still individuals?
Do you call yourself God or Jesus, being one in them? Do you pray to yourself being one in them? No!
And although I dont know Jehovahs Witness's doctrine, he showed you scripture that you all overlooked in Philippians 2:5-11, "6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
It is written in the beginning WAS the Word and the Word Was with God and the Word was God. This is what verse 6 is referring to.
But then the Word Was made flesh. This is what verse 7 is referring to.
Now I ask you if Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant in the likeness of men and was found in the fashion of a man, why do you make him God? Doesnt the angel Gabriel say to call him the "Son of God"? He DID NOT say call him God!

 

[Charity]

As long as we call him Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Savior I think that is the important thing.......God knows the intent of the heart. There are some things that we may never understand, maybe things that aren't such a big deal to God but we try to analyze everything. Maybe if we really want to know something we need to spend more time in prayer, in time things will be revealed....

Not everyone says that Jesus is God, this is another one of those things that each individual has to reach a conclusion for themself. It's between the individual and God....God is not the author of confusion, and I don't think he wants us to push ourselves over the edge with a lot of questions that doesn't make a difference. How can anyone be sure that whatever name they use that they are right and someone else is wrong?

 

[Blood Thirsty Blade]

Now what does the bible say of you who don't confess Jesus is the Son of God (when you call Jesus God this is what you're doing):
1 John 2:21-23

You say Jesus is God right? Well since God is not a man, you find yourself denying Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What does the bible say of you?
1 John 4:2-4; 2 John 1:7

The foundation of this belief is the Roman Catholic Church. Constantine, a worshipper of Mithra, said he saw the cross over the sun and a sign saying "In this sign conquer", this wasnt biblical at all.
Jesus told his disciples Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
The Apostle paul wrote 2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Constantine took his belief in Mithra and applied it to Jesus of Nazareth, because he said he saw a cross. He made his birthday Dec. 25 like Mithra, he at the council decided Jesus was God and not the Son of God. You see although he made the church free from persecution it came with a price, he demanded a say in church affairs, read your Church in History book.
So I ask you what does a worshipper of Mithra, a Roman god, have to say in the church of the Jewish Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth.
And this doctrine is from the Roman Catholic Church not The Apostles.
But Paul did prophesy this:1 Timothy 4:1-3
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Roman Catholics call their priest father, Jesus didn't say to do this Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
They forbid their priest and nuns to marry, when Paul says to avoid fornication let every man have his own wife and again he says he wills the younger women would marry (1 Corinthians 7:2, 1 Timothy 5:14).

But it was said in 2 Timothy 4:3-4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This is why many "Believers" will not stick to doctrine or scripture. Having no foundation for a belief that Jesus is God, because the foundation the bible lays is that Jesus is the Son of God.
Dont be afraid to check your churches doctrine & history!!!!! It's your soul no one elses.

 

[Blood Thirsty Blade]

You need to know who you're calling Jesus. You may be calling Mithra-Jesus and Jesus-Mithra. Without study and investigation you may be praying to Constantine's Jesus, which is not the Jesus of the bible. What will you tell the Lord on the day of Judgement? "Well Lord, I thought it was you!" You had a whole lifetime to find the truth, the bible is before you everyday! But we decide to go off of our own thoughts and draw our own conclusions about scripture. Think about it, we all claim to worship Jesus, but all the churches are divided in doctrine. The Methodists have a belief, Baptists have a belief, Jehovahs Witness have a belief. Didnt Jesus say a house divided will not stand. There is only one Jesus of Nazareth, why are there so many different belief systems coming in his name?
But it is writen: Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Baptist come in Jesus' name saying I am Christ, so do methodist, pentacostal, mormons, catholics, etc. then why are they all so divided in doctrine. Know that many are false and ONE is true. It is the individuals job to find out if they've been decieved.
And Jesus being God is a MAJOR deception, because you take away the Father's glory in his Son by saying they are one. God didn't give his life for us, God gave his Son, and his Son gave his life for those that believe in him. You do your own soul wrong by not searching out the truth!!! Prove your chuch right or wrong, prove your pastor, mother or father right or wrong!! Just dont fear to prove it with sound, rightly divided doctrine!

 

[AlexWylde]

Jesus said in John 10:30 "I and my Father are One"
One - 1.Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being. 2.Characterized by unity; undivided: a.Of the same kind or quality: b.Forming a single entity of two or more components
In John 17:11 Jesus prays and says "...keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." Same word, same definition, look it up. Now if the disciples are one AS the Father and Son are one are they not still 12 individuals. But they are One in that something unifies them, they are of one body, one being.That Being is Christ.
in John 17:21, again Jesus is praying (to the Father, Not to himself) saying, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us"
As - To the same extent or degree; equally
So he's saying to the same extent or degree the Father is in him and he in the Father, let his believers be one in them also.
Now is a believer God? Is a believer Jesus of Nazareth? Are we not still individuals?
Do you call yourself God or Jesus, being one in them? Do you pray to yourself being one in them? No!
And although I dont know Jehovahs Witness's doctrine, he showed you scripture that you all overlooked in Philippians 2:5-11, "6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"
It is written in the beginning WAS the Word and the Word Was with God and the Word was God. This is what verse 6 is referring to.
But then the Word Was made flesh. This is what verse 7 is referring to.
Now I ask you if Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant in the likeness of men and was found in the fashion of a man, why do you make him God? Doesnt the angel Gabriel say to call him the "Son of God"? He DID NOT say call him God!

So, I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure these are all the major scriptures that "Trinitarians" use to defend their faith. I think Blood Thirsty Blade has made some pretty good insights as to how we should look at these scriptures. And, if his argument isn't enough, how about the other bajillion verses in the Bible where Jesus is quite plainly referred to as the "Son of God". Honestly, if I were to read the Bible for the first time, and you gathered all the above mentioned scriptures, I may be a little confused as to what they mean exactly, but I think it's pretty simple what the rest of the Bible says. Jesus is the Son of God. There's no need to read into it anything else. Anything else is pure speculation. I know there is a lot speculation in many churches, but something as simple as this, there is just no need to look any further than the words in the book.

(clap clap :clap Blood Thirsty Blade)

 

[Muffled]

You need to know who you're calling Jesus. You may be calling Mithra-Jesus and Jesus-Mithra. Without study and investigation you may be praying to Constantine's Jesus, which is not the Jesus of the bible. What will you tell the Lord on the day of Judgement? "Well Lord, I thought it was you!" You had a whole lifetime to find the truth, the bible is before you everyday! But we decide to go off of our own thoughts and draw our own conclusions about scripture. Think about it, we all claim to worship Jesus, but all the churches are divided in doctrine. The Methodists have a belief, Baptists have a belief, Jehovahs Witness have a belief. Didnt Jesus say a house divided will not stand. There is only one Jesus of Nazareth, why are there so many different belief systems coming in his name?
But it is writen: Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Baptist come in Jesus' name saying I am Christ, so do methodist, pentacostal, mormons, catholics, etc. then why are they all so divided in doctrine. Know that many are false and ONE is true. It is the individuals job to find out if they've been decieved.
And Jesus being God is a MAJOR deception, because you take away the Father's glory in his Son by saying they are one. God didn't give his life for us, God gave his Son, and his Son gave his life for those that believe in him. You do your own soul wrong by not searching out the truth!!! Prove your chuch right or wrong, prove your pastor, mother or father right or wrong!! Just dont fear to prove it with sound, rightly divided doctrine!

There is no deception. The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is God in the flesh. I have had people argue otherwise but never successfully. The people who say otherwise aren't deceived either but are simply falling into the error of judging by appearances and by their own conceptions. There is no removal of glory. God's glory is always there.

Since Jesus is God in the flesh then He did give His life for us and that is so much more meaningful than if a mere man did so because a mere man can't remove my sins. God gives His very best which is Himself but for crucifixion it takes His presence in the flesh (His son).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I don't go there. Did anyone bother to tell BTB that we have argued these Biblical points before and that I have not been convinced by your arguments.

Well the response was for BTB and not for your benefit...obviously...:sarcastic...


And...I never try to convince trinitarians of anything. I simply respond to what you post. You, obviously, don't have to like it or agree.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is God in the flesh.

If that were the case then debates like this would not exist.

I have had people argue otherwise but never successfully.

All it means is that you have strong trinitarian beliefs and and can not be convinced that your scripture show that Yeshua is not God. One can be successful in putting forth a good argument but doesn't mean that all will except what is said.

The people who say otherwise aren't deceived either but are simply falling into the error of judging by appearances and by their own conceptions.

Well if that is true for everyone else wouldn't it be true for you as well?

Since Jesus is God in the flesh

Not according to Revelation 3:12

God gives His very best which is Himself but for crucifixion it takes His presence in the flesh (His son).

"falling into the error of judging by appearances and by their own conceptions."...:sarcastic

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So, I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure these are all the major scriptures that "Trinitarians" use to defend their faith. I think Blood Thirsty Blade has made some pretty good insights as to how we should look at these scriptures. And, if his argument isn't enough, how about the other bajillion verses in the Bible where Jesus is quite plainly referred to as the "Son of God". Honestly, if I were to read the Bible for the first time, and you gathered all the above mentioned scriptures, I may be a little confused as to what they mean exactly, but I think it's pretty simple what the rest of the Bible says. Jesus is the Son of God. There's no need to read into it anything else. Anything else is pure speculation. I know there is a lot speculation in many churches, but something as simple as this, there is just no need to look any further than the words in the book.

(clap clap :clap Blood Thirsty Blade)

I have often said this very same thing here. The whole of John Chapter 17 is a prayer from Yeshua to his god. God, from what I can tell from the OT through the NT, does not pray to himself, does not send himself and does not give himself anything. These things are echoed throughout the NT concerning Yeshua. He constantly informs his followers that God "taught him", God "commanded him", God "sent him"....If God has to be taught then he/she/it is not omniscient, If God has to be commanded or sent then it is not omnipotent. In order to be taught there must be a teacher, in order to be commanded there must be a commander and in order to be sent there must be a sender.

In the book of John Yeshua says it plainly that in order to have eternal life one must know that there is only one true god and Yehsua is the (Messiah) that this god has sent

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know you, the only true god, and Yeshua the Messiah, whom you have sent.

I don't know about you but to me this is crystal clear he's not God. Then a few chapters later he tells Mary he has a god. Then books later in Revelation 3:12 he tells John that he has a god. This is after the supposed ascension.

So it is interesting how some have adopted the notion that this man was deity considering there is much to the contrary.....most of it from Yeshua himself.

 

[AlexWylde]

There is no deception. The Bible is quite clear that Jesus is God in the flesh. I have had people argue otherwise but never successfully. The people who say otherwise aren't deceived either but are simply falling into the error of judging by appearances and by their own conceptions. There is no removal of glory. God's glory is always there.

Since Jesus is God in the flesh then He did give His life for us and that is so much more meaningful than if a mere man did so because a mere man can't remove my sins. God gives His very best which is Himself but for crucifixion it takes His presence in the flesh (His son).

This is what I believe. And it makes the most sense and is very meaningful to me.

Because God is benevolent, he made an incredible sacrifice in sending his "only begotten son" to earth to save us. Jesus Christ took upon him our sins and has experienced everything we have experienced. Jesus will be our advocate as we are judged before God. God can forgive us because Jesus took our place and suffered the iniquities for us.

Also, when I think of Jesus, I think of the most meek, humble, kind person to ever exist. It's hard for me to picture that same person sending people to damnation. Jesus will be the advocate for everybody, because Jesus knows what each of us has gone through. It is up to God to decide whether we have accepted the sacrifice of his son or not.

Those are just my thoughts. They might not be convincing, but the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is the most meaningful thing to have ever happened, whether you call him a God or not.

 

[Charity]

That is what I have been trying to say......thank you,.... God knows the intent of our heart no matter how we say it

 

[blackout]

Jesus is ONE with God,
as we are ALL one with God.

"The Christ" is within each and every one of us...
to be REALized.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Jesus is ONE with God,
as we are ALL one with God.

"The Christ" is within each and every one of us...
to be REALized.

That is not what the Gospels say. You are simply inserting your own beliefs formed outside of a Christian theology into Christian imagery. Christianity is not a Western Advaita Vedanta.

 

[blackout]

I regard nothing anymore (re christianity) but the kingdom teachings
attributed to Y'shua, and the accounts of the story of his life.

And I read metaphorically, allegorically, as he spoke in parables.

This is what I see there.

You are of course free to see whatever it is you are led to.

I was just answering the thread question from my perspective.
(and whose else would I answer it from?)

The "christianity" I see, when I read into Y'shua's teachings has little, if nothing,
to do with the mainstream understanding of Christ or his Message.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Since Jesus is God in the flesh

Dirty Penguin:
Not according to Revelation 3:12

Here we read Jesus referring multiple times to God as his Father and as "his God". Again, the Trinity provides the only truly satisfactory explanation for the New Testament's apparent confusion over the identity of Jesus.

There is no doubt that his divinity was sufficiently unclear as to warrant a debate. The question was worked out after the death of the Apostles among the Christian communities as they strove to be faithful to the Revelation they had received. How is it that an essentially Jewish movement can speak of a human being utilizing the same imagery and language that the Hebrew Bible adamantly reserves only for YHWH? How can they really be the heirs and guardians of a New Covenant without an essential inner consistency to the first?

Now let us continue with the The Book of Revelation which, in its initial chapters, gives the title "Alpha and Omega" to God the Father. Yet at the conclusion of the Book it is quite possible that it says the same of Christ:

"It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son".

Revelation 21: 6

Further, the New Jerusalem is said to be "the wife of the lamb". Again, how is it that the Christians could consider the Jewish religion fulfilled in Christ, while wedding the Covenant Nation and Holy City to someone other than God? This would violate the Jewish religion in its very essence. All continuity would be shattered.

Further more, of the New Jerusalem:

the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

God and Jesus constitute the one Temple of Jerusalem.

Beyond this there is St. Paul who says Jesus is "in very nature God" or "in the likeness of God", but emptied himself to become "in the nature of a man".

Additionally, John's identification with the Word and God.

Thomas' cry to Jesus, "My Lord and My God"

Jesus' usage of the Divine Name "I am" , the one revealed to Moses.

I think it is with good reason that the Christians came to see an association of substance between the Father and the Son.

 

[Ronald]

But the first Gospel, the Torah, says you are wrong "there is no other God besides me"! So says --------
---
Y H V H

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Part 1

Here we read Jesus referring multiple times to God as his Father and as "his God". Again, the Trinity provides the only truly satisfactory explanation for the New Testament's apparent confusion over the identity of Jesus.

There's no need for this adopted concept to describe the nature of Yeshua. The scriptures do a great job in showing so plainly that he isn't God. If you require the trinity then fine but I have been able to look upon the four gospels and no where does Yeshua say he is God, or taught that he is God.

There is no doubt that his divinity was sufficiently unclear as to warrant a debate. The question was worked out after the death of the Apostles among the Christian communities as they strove to be faithful to the Revelation they had received.

Ok...so they compromised. All this while other groups still held to the fact that the man was not God. This hardly proves deity.

Now let us continue with the The Book of Revelation which, in its initial chapters, gives the title "Alpha and Omega" to God the Father. Yet at the conclusion of the Book it is quite possible that it says the same of Christ:

Revelation 21: 6

You know, people do this all the time. The Alpha and Omega title is strictly for God. It was never applied, in those scriptures, to Yeshua (The Lamb) nor did he ever say he was the Alpha and Omega. If anyone cares to observe the previous verse they will quickly understand that it is God that is speaking and in the next verse he says he is the "Alpha and Omega"...

There is an abundance of information in determining who is speaking. First John calls him (The One Who Is Sitting On The Throne). This is solely applied to God. Yeshua is referred to as the Lamb. I will give you the quotes that this description (the one sitting on the throne) is for God and not Yeshua in a minute. If you observe verse 7 God says "All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children"

Pay close attention to what I have put in blue. It is something that Yeshua says very early on in reference to his god.

Rev. 3:12
All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write my God's name on them, and they will be citizens in the city of my God--the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And they will have my new name inscribed upon them.

So Revelation 21:6 has nothing to do with Yeshua being the Alpha and Omega.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Part 2

Now let us continue with the The Book of Revelation

And if we want to know who is sitting on the throne then observe;

Revelation 4:2 and 9-11
2 And instantly I was in the Spirit, and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!

9 Whenever the living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne, the one who lives forever and ever,

10 the twenty-four elders fall down and worship the one who lives forever and ever. And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,

11 "You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created."


Now remember God in verse 4:11 above? God (IS) worthy so let's move a little forward;

Revelation 5:1-4

1 And I saw a scroll in the right hand of the one who was sitting on the throne. There was writing on the inside and the outside of the scroll, and it was sealed with seven seals.

Remember verse 4:2 above? God is sitting on the throne.


2 And I saw a strong angel, who shouted with a loud voice: "Who is worthy to break the seals on this scroll and unroll it?

Remember verse 4:11 above? God is worthy...so out of respect none of his creation would dare question his worthiness to open something that he had in his possession that he most likely sealed himself. Remember, he is omnipotent/omniscient.


3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll and read it.

Surely John thought God was capable of accomplishing this task? The scroll was not for God to open but some one other than God who was worthy was to open the seals.


4 Then I wept because no one could be found who was worthy to open the scroll and read it.

God had the scroll in his hand. Surely there was no need of this if everyone knew he was worthy. Again, that's because he was entrusting some one else worthy enough to open the seals. Some one other than himself.


5 But one of the twenty-four elders said to me, "Stop weeping! Look, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the heir to David's throne, has conquered. He is worthy to open the scroll and break its seven seals."

As you can clearly see, a reference to some one else is mentioned worthy of opening the seals......not the one on the throne (God).

Wait, wait....it gets better......;

Revelation 5:7

7 He stepped forward and took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting on the throne.

Remember Rev. 4:2 above? God is the one the throne and in Rev. 5:7 "The Lamb" is the one who comes forward and takes the scroll from the hand of his god. Also note that (The Lamb) was not sitting on the throne. He was in the crowd with the rest of God's creation.

So as we can clearly see Yeshua is not God nor is he the Alpha and Omega.

Additionally, John's identification with the Word and God.

Yes I've heard all of this before too. To me all it means is the word was made flesh, meaning Yeshua was charged with bringing Gods word to earth to a lost people. This is why we find Yeshua telling his followers "he was taught" by his god, 'he was commanded" by his god. In John chapter 17, in his prayer to his god, he says "I have given them your word".

He also said "as I hear I speak"....meaning these are the things he was taught. "The words you hear are not mine".... Since we know he's not God then whose words is he speaking? Well John (The Baptist) clears that up. He said that "He who is sent speaks the words of God". He was speaking of no other man than Yeshua. In fact Yeshua himself said He spoke the words of his god. So Yeshua is not God but simply one who brings the "word" of God through him to the people as he was taught and commanded to do.

Thomas' cry to Jesus, "My Lord and My God"

Only if you're reading the King James version and a few other versions. There are plenty of scholars that have translated that verse to show that this was a statement of excitement (!) due to the sheer fact that Thomas didn't believe Yeshua was alive, considering none of them were there to witness the supposed crucifixion. They all simply heard rumors that the event had happen and Yeshua was dead. As Thomas gazed upon his friend and teacher he was stunned to find out that it was true he was alive and that fact that he exclaimed this (after) he touched Yeshua is clear enough and understandable of the excitement he felt.

Jesus' usage of the Divine Name "I am" , the one revealed to Moses.

I have dealt with this tidbit of information before. In "context" Yeshua does not call himself (I am). He simply remarked that he "existed" before Abraham and that's what set off the jews. It wasn't until he said he existed before their beloved Abraham they picked up the stones but if you observe the quotes before that they had already been trying to kill him. So the notion they wanted to kill him because he invoked the great (I AM) is false and totally misunderstood.

 

[wvpeach]

Excellent posts dirty penguin!