Why do you believe in God?

[viole]

We are designed to believe, it actually requires effort to reject God.

Correct. It is a bit like the notion of time we have (wrong), and it takes a lot of effort to accept the relativistic one (right).

Ciao

- viole

 

[firedragon]

Religion of some form or another has always been in the majority throughout human history. Most people are religious before they ever become interested in religion. The inexplicable birth of religion has already occurred deep in the subconscious mind apart from religious introspection.

When non-believers join something called "Religious Forums" in order to undermine religious people that's proof of the "effort" to deny God among non-believers. Like, if one had no interest in tennis they wouldn't join a tennis forum to argue tennis.

Thanks colter.

 

[ratiocinator]

Religion of some form or another has always been in the majority throughout human history.

Apart from being an argumentum ad populum fallacy, I think you mean superstition in general. It's not as if the majority through human history have all believed the same god(s) - far from it.

When non-believers join something called "Religious Forums" in order to undermine religious people that's proof of the "effort" to deny God among non-believers.

Most unbelievers don't. Some of us think religion can be counterproductive in some circumstances and for some people and want to give an alternative point of view. It's also quite good fun to argue your point of view with people who disagree and it can be intellectually stimulating (sometimes).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Religion of some form or another has always been in the majority throughout human history. Most people are religious before they ever become interested in religion. The inexplicable birth of religion has already occurred deep in the subconscious mind apart from religious introspection.

When non-believers join something called "Religious Forums" in order to undermine religious people that's proof of the "effort" to deny God among non-believers. Like, if one had no interest in tennis they wouldn't join a tennis forum to argue tennis.

You sectioned thousands of nonbelievers who never even heard of RF and thousands more who don't believe in any abrahamic God.

How did you come to that conclusion without excluding people around the world who dont align with your reasoning?

 

[firedragon]

He expressed his claim as if it were universal ("We are designed to believe, it actually requires effort to reject God."). I was pointing out that I am a counterexample.

Okay okay. I understand what you are saying.

 

[The Hammer]

I have a lot of questions but I wonder if this is the thread for all of that.

Feel free to ask, when you want.

Probably not this thread specifically.

 

[firedragon]

Apart from being an argumentum ad populum fallacy, I think you mean superstition in general. It's not as if the majority through human history have all believed the same god(s) - far from it.


Most unbelievers don't. Some of us think religion can be counterproductive in some circumstances and for some people and want to give an alternative point of view. It's also quite good fun to argue your point of view with people who disagree and it can be intellectually stimulating (sometimes).

What happens is this type of religious dedication to debunk religions and God is derailing topics.

 

[Link]

God is the light of all light. To me, he exists and is the source of power and spark of living things, the living/existing one behind all existence and he guides us to know ourselves, and his vision is the judgment by which we know ourselves through love. And he is the basis of morality, value, honor, and greatness.

 

[ratiocinator]

What happens is this type of religious dedication to debunk religions and God is derailing topics.

Sorry if you think that but you did post this "Why do you believe in God?" question in a debate section. If you just wanted personal answers and no challenges to people's reasons, you could have put it a non-debate section like Religions Q&A.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry if you think that but you did post this "Why do you believe in God?" question in a debate section. If you just wanted personal answers and no challenges to people's reasons, you could have put it a non-debate section like Religions Q&A.

Nah. Have at it. This is a debate thread alright. Just that, what you are trying to debate is irrelevant.

But since as you said you enjoy it so much, why not. Cheers.

 

[Colt]

You sectioned thousands of nonbelievers who never even heard of RF and thousands more who don't believe in any abrahamic God.

How did you come to that conclusion without excluding people around the world who dont align with your reasoning?

reread

"When non-believers join something called "Religious Forums" in order to undermine religious people"...............

 

[RestlessSoul]

Nah. Have at it. This is a debate thread alright. Just that, what you are trying to debate is irrelevant.

But since as you said you enjoy it so much, why not. Cheers.

It’s an interesting thread, and I’d prefer it if it didn’t mutate into yet another circuitous debate about burdens of proof, logical fallacies etc. Just my personal preference though.

Are you going to answer your own question btw? Obviously you are not obliged to, but I’d be interested.

 

[firedragon]

Not exactly. @cOLTER made a general claim (apparently about everybody), rather than give a personal reason. It may have been his experience that it would have required an effort to not believe, but it certainly wasn't mine.

Now that, lets see.

1. You said that your experience was different right? So do you think that is the default nature of all humans? Is not that a anecdotal fallacy speaking of logical fallacies?

2. Do you know that research was conducted and findings were that children were born the way this person is describing? I didnt want to derail the thread so I neglected this, but since you insist.

What do you think?

 

[firedragon]

It’s an interesting thread, and I’d prefer it if it didn’t mutate into yet another circuitous debate about burdens of proof, logical fallacies etc. Just my personal preference though.

Are you going to answer your own question btw? Obviously you are not obliged to, but I’d be interested.

Many people have given many different understandings and reasons, and all of them were educative. So it was going well.

Nevertheless, what question of mine did you ask if I am going to answer RS? Please do let me know.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Many people have given many different understandings and reasons, and all of them were educative. So it was going well.

Nevertheless, what question of mine did you ask if I am going to answer RS? Please do let me know.

The question I’m referring to is, why do you believe in God?

 

[Windwalker]

Everyone is different, as much as their theologies, individually. Some believe because of a rational argument, some because of an emotional appeal, some because of personal experience, etc etc. This thread is to understand why as an individual, not as an institution, indoctrination or standards, although all of them would have influenced the individual, would believe in God.

As an individual, why do you believe in God?

I had a spontaneous peak experience of the Absolute when I was 18, stepping outside of time into the timeless Infinite. That set in motion trying to make sense of the experience, and turning to religion in the hope they could explain it, and give guidance in how to build upon that in my life, to experience again that absolute liberation and freedom of soul and limitless Joy that I had experienced.

I adopted the Christian religion, as it was my culture's native religion I was familiar with, but had never participated in as a kid growing up, other than cultural rituals like Christmas and Easter. It had not grown up in a religiously observant homelife, being taught beliefs and theologies about the Divine.

So beliefs about God were added after the fact to make sense of that experience for myself. But those beliefs I learned after joining a church failed to go beyond just beliefs and finding comfort in those ideas about God, into actual grounded connection and the true spiritual liberation I had sought, so I became disillusioned with it, and left those behind, somewhat confused as to where to go next, wandering out into the wilderness alone, as the story goes.

After deconstructing those mythic-literal views of God I had been taught through my religious training with them, I considered myself a 'spiritual atheist', someone who recognized the truth of the transcendent, yet rejected mythic views of God as taught by the religions I was familiar with as literally true. Noah's Ark was not a real event, but a symbolic story; the earth was not created in 6 literal days, or 6 periods of 1000 years either, but evolution as taught by science was what really happened; and so forth.

Some years later I discovered the practice of mediation, and took to it like a duck to water, almost instantly 'coming home' to where I had begun nearly 30 years earlier at age 18 in that peak experience. That was what was missing for me in all that religious exposure, despite the literalistic beliefs I was being taught to not have enough truth in them to address my rational mind properly at the time either. Mediation opened me to direct, firsthand experience of the Transcendent again, to touch and taste into that same Wellspring of Life itself I had as a child, albeight not as fully liberated as in that original peak experience, due to internal obstacles I needed to face. But it was the same Source.

Since then I have come to recognize that beliefs are at their best, simply supports for experience, to try to help translate and give meaning to them, yet they are not foundational to the experience themselves, nor are they foundational to genuine faith, which is an intuition of the heart, not an idea of the head. Beliefs are practical, and can and should be adjusted, modified, or rejected if they fail to support actual experience, or even faith. But they are too often all there is for most, and act as immortality symbols, rather than as tools for the transcendent. Experience replaces beliefs, and it also replaces faith.

So I say I believe in God, but I understand that to mean that "God" is a word that expresses the nature of the Transcendent, and not a literal "entity" or being, or creature in the sky or the heavens, as the typical believer imagines in their minds in the absence of actual experience. Those beliefs are mental constructs only, and all too often, for the 'true believer', they are substitutions for authentic faith, and actual experience itself.

My 'belief' is simply using words to try to express what is itself utterly beyond words. "God beyond God", as the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart aptly termed it.

 

[firedragon]

The question I’m referring to is, why do you believe in God?

Ah I see. I am so sorry I didnt understand what you were referring to.

I believe in God because it is the most rational, logical conclusion. I dont see any other way for our existence, and the way we exist. To me the God proposition or if you wish to call it, belief, is the end result of bottom-up and top-down reasoning.

 

[firedragon]

I had a spontaneous peak experience of the Absolute when I was 18, stepping outside of time into the timeless Infinite. That set in motion trying to make sense of the experience, and turning to religion in the hope they could explain it, and give guidance in how to build upon that in my life, to experience again that absolute liberation and freedom of soul and limitless Joy that I had experienced.

I adopted the Christian religion, as it was my culture's native religion I was familiar with, but had never participated in as a kid growing up, other than cultural rituals like Christmas and Easter. It had not grown up in a religiously observant homelife, being taught beliefs and theologies about the Divine.

So beliefs about God were added after the fact to make sense of that experience for myself. But those beliefs I learned after joining a church failed to go beyond just beliefs and finding comfort in those ideas about God, into actual grounded connection and the true spiritual liberation I had sought, so I became disillusioned with it, and left those behind, somewhat confused as to where to go next, wandering out into the wilderness alone, as the story goes.

After deconstructing those mythic-literal views of God I had been taught through my religious training with them, I considered myself a 'spiritual atheist', someone who recognized the truth of the transcendent, yet rejected mythic views of God as taught by the religions I was familiar with as literally true. Noah's Ark was not a real event, but a symbolic story; the earth was not created in 6 literal days, or 6 periods of 1000 years either, but evolution as taught by science was what really happened; and so forth.

Some years later I discovered the practice of mediation, and took to it like a duck to water, almost instantly 'coming home' to where I had begun nearly 30 years earlier at age 18 in that peak experience. That was what was missing for me in all that religious exposure, despite the literalistic beliefs I was being taught to not have enough truth in them to address my rational mind properly at the time either. Mediation opened me to direct, firsthand experience of the Transcendent again, to touch and taste into that same Wellspring of Life itself I had as a child, albeight not as fully liberated as in that original peak experience, due to internal obstacles I needed to face. But it was the same Source.

Since then I have come to recognize that beliefs are at their best, simply supports for experience, to try to help translate and give meaning to them, yet they are not foundational to the experience themselves, nor are they foundational to genuine faith, which is an intuition of the heart, not an idea of the head. Beliefs are practical, and can and should be adjusted, modified, or rejected if they fail to support actual experience, or even faith. But they are too often all there is for most, and act as immortality symbols, rather than as tools for the transcendent. Experience replaces beliefs, and it also replaces faith.

So I say I believe in God, but I understand that to mean that "God" is a word that expresses the nature of the Transcendent, and not a literal "entity" or being, or creature in the sky or the heavens, as the typical believer imagines in their minds in the absence of actual experience. Those beliefs are mental constructs only, and all too often, for the 'true believer', they are substitutions for authentic faith, and actual experience itself.

My 'belief' is simply using words to try to express what is itself utterly beyond words. "God beyond God", as the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart aptly termed it.

I thank you for your serious response WW. Thank you so much. It is very valuable.

 

[stvdv]

You see Muhammed the same or is there a difference? Do you see features of the person or is it just light, lots of light all around him?

For me, they appear (but very, very rarely) when I am very dedicated over a prolonged time with that Religion.

So, they do not appear the same to me usually. Though I would not be surprised, that if I would dedicate the same focus and attention (and time) to a different Religion that these experiences will show similarities (not that they appear whenever I do things, I see it all as His Grace)

With Muhammad, my focus was more of study and contemplation, and it was the first time I was so dedicated with Islam over a prolonged time, and Muhammad appeared clearly as a person not as light

And it was of course all Grace, and I was glad it happened, because now I'm more open than before towards Islam, before I was open, because 1 of my Masters was all about Islam, but after such experience it's more natural for me to believe Muhammad is for real (even now, as I see they are beyond time)

The experience with Jesus was in a setting with a group of ca. 200 people all chanting hymns (Portuguese), and really beautiful, and full of 'light', and I was in a joyful mood too, hence the appearance maybe came more as light, but that is just my guess.

And prior to this event, as a preparation, I kept very strict vegan diet, and lots of fasting as well as Silence and Solitude (far away from all "sex, drugs and rock' n roll"), not talking to people for ca. 2 weeks, and also silence during the 12h ceremony; I was really in 1 of my extreme enthusiastic, fanatic moods back then (nowadays I'm a bit more 'lazy', still a good focus, but less extreme).

All this I did not do when Muhammad appeared. So, I don't compare both myself. Both were very useful to me, and I really appreciate these gifts.

I am a person who likes to be in control and know things and be certain about things, but when it comes to Spirituality nothing is fixed, IMO, it's all reflection of my own action (of course all His Grace), and I'm not in control nor do I understand it, so I just accept what happens and continue
@stvdvRFvb

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, why do you believe in God?

Because there is evidence that God exists.